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Weaken Speed: Negative Ranks?

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  • Weaken Speed: Negative Ranks?

    We already know from Shrinking that it's possible for a character to have a ground movement rank below 0 (as if common sense didn't tell us already), and your ground movement rank and your Speed rank are effectively the same thing. So is it fair to say that, just like an ability Weaken can reduce abilities to below 0, a Speed Weaken can reduce one's ground movement rank to below 0? And that maybe if you reduce it to below -5, the character becomes debilitated as if they had an ability reduced below -5? That last bit might be unbalanced, as an ability Weaken debilitates Joe Average after 10 points and this would debilitate him after only 5 points.

    Also, would a Weaken with a Broad modifier be able to affect any trait related to moving or doing things fast? (In my mind, that would include Speed, Flight, Swimming, Burrowing, Fight, Dexterity, Agility and Quickness, possibly the Multiattack modifier as well but only the modifier)

  • #2
    Re: Weaken Speed: Negative Ranks?

    Yes, Ranged Weaken Movement Effects (Broad) could drain any one method of movement. You'd additionally need the Simultaneous modifier to drain them all at once.

    It wouldn't apply to Dex/Agl, Quickness, etc because they are not "movement" effects.

    Any combination of both Broad and Simultaneous would get my very close attention.

    Edit: and there are a number of of Weaken effects that start out equally low to Speed, e.g. INT/AWE/PRE. Drain that to -5 and characters become Unaware, which effectively makes them unable of taking actions.
    Last edited by badpenny; 09-17-2014, 06:32 AM.
    Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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    • #3
      Re: Weaken Speed: Negative Ranks?

      But you have to remember that abilities are worth 2 points per rank, so Speed is much easier to lower on a rank basis.

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      • #4
        Re: Weaken Speed: Negative Ranks?

        Originally posted by cochramd View Post
        But you have to remember that abilities are worth 2 points per rank, so Speed is much easier to lower on a rank basis.
        True, but draining Speed just prohibits them from moving. Draining INT/AWE/PRE to Debilitated prevents them from even participating in combat.
        Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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        • #5
          Re: Weaken Speed: Negative Ranks?

          Not being able to move can take a melee character out of the fight, though I was actually referring to the possibility of a character with a speed less than -5 being debilitated as if speed were an ability.

          By the way, this is probably going to set off some GM alarms in your head, but how many linked Broad Weakens or, if you're up to playing really loose with the rules applications of the Broad modifier on one Weaken, would it take to cover all of the traits I initially listed? I'm thinking 2. If one application can get me all 8 abilities, then it should also be able to get me 3 particular abilities and a few things I associate with them.

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          • #6
            Re: Weaken Speed: Negative Ranks?

            Remember that we're talking about effects, which are singular in construction. Draining movement effects is a descriptor for, let's say, Speed. So if you're Speed is reduced to -5 you cannot move from that spot, you've become Immobile. This does not mean you cannot still attack, e.g. raise your hand and Blast away. Even if with both Broad and Simultaneous, it's just movement effects, i.e. ways to impart physical distance, not movement of your individual body parts. At best, having Debilitated Speed might mean your legs couldn't work, so maybe the GM might say you couldn't kick or something.

            From your OP, I'd choose the Stunned condition from Affliction. Stunned states that you cannot take any actions, even Free ones, so not only can you not take a Move action to physically move, but you can't take a Standard action to attack, nor a Free action to maintain your Sustained effects or even speak (technically). It's a very powerful condition.
            Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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            • #7
              Re: Weaken Speed: Negative Ranks?

              It is, but the idea of an attack that reduces an enemy's attack skills, Parry and Dodge more appealing than preventing them from taking any actions. After all, Stunned does not make a target easier to hit. True, Stunned prevents them from attacking at all and I can pick Vulnerable for the first condition, but that all goes away after one good resistance check on their part while a Weaken can last for a while.

              Now I've been thinking for a while now, and while you are correct about a Broad Weaken only applying to movement powers, I think that's because you're looking at it from a categorical perspective. If you look at it from a potency perspective, a Broad Weaken (abilities) is not only rules legal but listed as an example of the Broad modifier. Put Progressive on that, and you've got an attack that will reduce every single skill, all 5 defenses and resistances, both attack bonuses and Strength-based damage, not to mention lifting capacity and straight ability checks. The target is now less capable of dealing with almost every conceivable challenge or obstacle, combat or otherwise. I think that what I outlined in the OP is significantly less powerful than that, and since there is a common link between them if you squint (they all revolve around moving quickly) maybe a GM who preferred to look at it from a potency perspective would allow it all to be put in one Broad Weaken.

              This might all be pointless chitchat, though. I'm probably ever going to give this power to an NPC where the points don't matter anyways.

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