Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Side Effect 1 on an area attack

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Side Effect 1 on an area attack

    Side Effect 1 hurts the hero if he fails his roll to use it -- or, for abilities with no roll, if the target resists.

    Simple enough.

    But what if you apply it to an area attack? What's the threshold for deciding whether the Side Effect kicks in?

    The brick in our game took a powerful shockwave AE with Side Effect 1 (Damage) -- basically, he hurts you or it hurts him. Now let's say he's surrounded by three foes and does his shockwave. How many people have to resist for him to take damage? At what point is he considered to have "failed" for the purpose of Side Effect?
    • One, because if even one person resists, it "failed."
    • Two, because it should be that if at least half the people resist, it "failed."
    • Three, because everyone has to resist for it to count as "failed."
    • Some other number or answer, because to hell with your simple options!
    [B][URL="http://www.mygurps.com/mm3e.shtml"]My Collection of M&M (3E) House Rules[/URL][/B]
    Including . . .[LIST][*]Combat "Boosts," Investigation Montages, and more[*]New Powers, Advantages, and Gear[*]Worked Examples and Rules Clarifications[/LIST]

  • #2
    Re: Side Effect 1 on an area attack

    I think it would depend on the descriptors. As the GM, I'd want to understand the nature of the power. Why is there a Side-Effect? Does it naturally follow that if he fails to use it he's the one who gets hurt, or is he just searching for a Flaw to make it cheaper?

    I've always felt that Side-Effects should naturally follow from their concept. I have a character who can talk to the dead. He acts as a medium and has to Negotiate with them, using interaction skills rather than Perception for the Postcognition effect. The Side-effect is that if he fails to persuade the spirits, they can possess him (side-effect of being a medium).

    Personally, I wouldn't want to deal with it. I'd ask that the player just take Distracting or something simple because the number of targets in an area would always be changing. If you put a gun to my head and I had to choose, I'd say no more than half of the all of the targets could fail or the Side-effect kicks in, but that's entirely a WAG.
    Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Side Effect 1 on an area attack

      I'm not sure I'm comfortable leaving this up to the descriptor, because I could see two players in similar situations being really upset.

      Me: "Okay, Bob, you took out four of the bad guys, but the fifth resisted. Make a Toughness save."

      Bob: "Wait! When Dave did his area blast, he only took out half the guys and he didn't have to save."

      Me: "Right, but that's because the reason Dave's shockwave has Side Effect is that it represents a wave of force, so it only gets shoved back at him if all of the foes resist. Your blast has Side Effect because it's a psychic attack in which the bad guys' own psyches emerge briefly and beat each other up, so a psyche attacks you if any of the foes resist."

      Bob: "That's . . . so not fair. I didn't even save as many points as Dave did."

      In general, I do believe involving the descriptor, but this is a little too "big" to do so IMO. Using Bob and Dave as an example, if each one was to attack a group of 10 guys, Bob would be ten times as likely as Dave to take damage. So I feel like there does have to be a unified default ruling . . . and then, if someone's descriptor justified it, I could deviate from that ruling as long as it was a lateral change (one neither better nor worse, overall).
      [B][URL="http://www.mygurps.com/mm3e.shtml"]My Collection of M&M (3E) House Rules[/URL][/B]
      Including . . .[LIST][*]Combat "Boosts," Investigation Montages, and more[*]New Powers, Advantages, and Gear[*]Worked Examples and Rules Clarifications[/LIST]

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Side Effect 1 on an area attack

        There's not going to be a simple answer given that there's nothing in what is written to guide you one way or the other. You'll have to make the call. Or just don't allow it and make the player choose another Flaw.

        A Flaw shouldn't be taken with the idea to avoid it. If you're affecting an area, as the player, you should understand the consequences go up the more people you're trying to clobber. Limitations should make a power about 50% less effective.
        Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Side Effect 1 on an area attack

          Originally posted by badpenny View Post
          A Flaw shouldn't be taken with the idea to avoid it.
          Except that's exactly what differentiates Side Effect 1 from Side Effect 2 -- the former is avoidable under certain circumstances while the latter is not. That's the point of Side Effect, and is the whole reason I'm here.

          I'm certainly not about to tell the player, "I'm not comfortable making a ruling as GM, so you have to pick a different Flaw." I'm quite comfortable simply making the call -- if I weren't, I shouldn't be GMing. But before ruling by fiat, I decided to stop by here (1) to see if there was an official rule about this that I'd simply overlooked (perhaps in one of the Power Profiles), and if not then (2) to get the consideration of my fellow gamers on this issue.

          I appreciate your input and have noted your original "if I had to choose" answer of at least half the people resisting. For what it's worth, that's what I was leaning toward as well going into this.

          Does anyone else have an opinion?
          [B][URL="http://www.mygurps.com/mm3e.shtml"]My Collection of M&M (3E) House Rules[/URL][/B]
          Including . . .[LIST][*]Combat "Boosts," Investigation Montages, and more[*]New Powers, Advantages, and Gear[*]Worked Examples and Rules Clarifications[/LIST]

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Side Effect 1 on an area attack

            What about making it hurt him of he rolls poorly, instead of based on how well the targets defend? I saw a Captain America build where his shield doesn't ricochet if he rolls 1-5. You could do that with his power: on a natural roll of 1-5, he doesn't channel his power correctly and it fires back on him. That would bypass the issue of number of targets completely.
            Elliot McGuire/Levitron - Super Framily Apprenticeship Plan (IC)
            John Olson/Spark - Superhuman Defense Organization - America (IC)

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Side Effect 1 on an area attack

              I'd go with if anyone resists. The side effect is X if someone resists, just because you (the player) chose to try to succeed against everyone in an area (making the power arguably better) doesn't reduce the effect of the side effect.

              But I'm a big meany.

              edit: or you could rule that since it states " or, for abilities with no roll, if the target resists." that the side effect implies a target and since an area effect has no target "side effect" is not a valid flaw for the power.
              Last edited by kariggi; 09-17-2014, 10:45 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Side Effect 1 on an area attack

                Originally posted by rwknoll View Post
                What about making it hurt him of he rolls poorly, instead of based on how well the targets defend? I saw a Captain America build where his shield doesn't ricochet if he rolls 1-5. You could do that with his power: on a natural roll of 1-5, he doesn't channel his power correctly and it fires back on him. That would bypass the issue of number of targets completely.
                Only problem with that is that he doesn't roll -- it's an area effect.
                [B][URL="http://www.mygurps.com/mm3e.shtml"]My Collection of M&M (3E) House Rules[/URL][/B]
                Including . . .[LIST][*]Combat "Boosts," Investigation Montages, and more[*]New Powers, Advantages, and Gear[*]Worked Examples and Rules Clarifications[/LIST]

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Side Effect 1 on an area attack

                  Usually you are unaffected by offensive close area affects without having to pay for immunity to your own powers (whcih is only a 1 PP immunity anyway). Side Effect 2 would easily justify the character having to save against their own power at full power. If you want Side Effect 1, basically take that Side Effect 2 and apply a 1/2 effect limit to it to get Side Effect 1. They have to save against their own power but only at half rank (probably rounded down).

                  Simple solutions are usuually the easiest to remember and have a lot fewer loopholes to worry about.
                  Classic car restoring, gun owning, martial arts practicing, military, gamer geek, kinky lesbian IT chick (has your brain exploded yet?)
                  [URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/1835-Digital-s-Daemons"]My character library[/URL]

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Side Effect 1 on an area attack

                    Originally posted by digitalangel View Post
                    Usually you are unaffected by offensive close area affects without having to pay for immunity to your own powers (whcih is only a 1 PP immunity anyway). Side Effect 2 would easily justify the character having to save against their own power at full power. If you want Side Effect 1, basically take that Side Effect 2 and apply a 1/2 effect limit to it to get Side Effect 1. They have to save against their own power but only at half rank (probably rounded down).

                    Simple solutions are usuually the easiest to remember and have a lot fewer loopholes to worry about.
                    Huh. I hadn't even considered that. Treat it as though it were applying Side Effect 2 to half his levels, rather than applying Side Effect 1 to all his levels. That's a remarkably elegant solution -- thanks!
                    [B][URL="http://www.mygurps.com/mm3e.shtml"]My Collection of M&M (3E) House Rules[/URL][/B]
                    Including . . .[LIST][*]Combat "Boosts," Investigation Montages, and more[*]New Powers, Advantages, and Gear[*]Worked Examples and Rules Clarifications[/LIST]

                    Comment

                    Working...
                    X