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Mass summons - how do they do combat? New DM + players

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  • catsi563
    replied
    Actually surprised no one has mentioned the mass combat rules from the GMs guide Page 194

    the rules basically treat the summons as one group or one entity giving it a set of stats

    such as Zombie horde Att +4 Def +4 tough +6 damage +6 or something along those lines

    when the horde is attacked a single roll is made versus the combined entitiy if the roll hits the Combined entitiy makes a toughness save

    a failure can be a bruise ie one or two parts of the horde are knocked out
    -5 means the horde is disrupted they've lost a few members and the rest are shaken
    -10 the horde is staggered several of its number have been taken down and the rest are badly shaken
    -15 means the horde is dissolved as all its members are down, destroyed or otherwise unable to continue

    Quick edit Fuzzy mentioned treating them as a single entity above which is essentially what the mass combat calls for
    Last edited by catsi563; 14th May 2019, 10:12 AM.

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  • FuzzyBoots
    replied
    {nods} Indeed. And even with using Aid actions, that's also several rolls. Frankly, that's part of why it is often suggested to instead treat the horde as a single "swam" summon.

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  • GrumpyOldAndy
    replied

    Apologies for the delay, I've had problems getting onto the forums.

    I didn't mean that I thought the summons was broken, I meant that at least until everyone is used to combat, the player with all the minions will take as long to do his combat round as everyone else put together, possibly longer, with 32 zombies considerably longer, resulting in very boring combat, which is the antithesis of superhero games.

    Somewhere in the rules, in an under the hood box, it also explains why players only get one action, even if they are speedsters. Minions seem to be the complete opposite of the intent explained in that box. Champions gets round it by having powers cost fatigue, so the more a character does, the more he exhausts himself until he can do nothing. With no similar limiting option, even if the minions are weak and useless ("Hey zombies, I can fly, you can't, so I'll just hover here and zap you one at a time for the next hour"), they just take up a large amount of time to manage, which is no fun for anyone.

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  • jmucchiello
    replied
    Re: Mass summons - how do they do combat? New DM + players

    Bothrops is right there. You can't house rule you way around someone attempting to break the system. The system will break if you poke at the edges. That one of those rules as written vs rules as intended. If you read the Power Profiles book, there's a lot of hand waving to make some of those effects. The RAI are to apparently allow rather than disallow. But that requires restraint on the player's part not to take advantage of those allowances.

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  • Bothrops
    replied
    Re: Mass summons - how do they do combat? New DM + players

    Originally posted by GrumpyOldAndy View Post
    So what I'm seeing here is that Summon should not be in any build for new players at all, and is generally for NPC villains.
    Not necessarily. While Summon is indeed one of the more complex effects & requires somewhat more GM-oversight, it's hardly the most potentially problematic one. Common sense (on both GM's & players' part) is king. M&M is definitely NOT a game for munchkins/powergamers seeking to "game the system". Trying to reign these in with nerfs & bans is ultimately pointless - if they're unwilling to change their attitude, just don't play with them.

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  • GrumpyOldAndy
    replied
    Re: Mass summons - how do they do combat? New DM + players

    So what I'm seeing here is that Summon should not be in any build for new players at all, and is generally for NPC villains.

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  • Bothrops
    replied
    Re: Mass summons - how do they do combat? New DM + players

    As Fuzzy said. I'd like to add that - as GM - I usually limit player-minions to a max number of 4 (at least the ones actively involved in combat).
    I also agree that large numbers of minions are best represented by a single "horde" or "swarm" entity. For example:

    Raise the Horde (13p)
    Summon 3 (Controlled, Heroic, Mental Link, Source [corpses])


    Zombie Horde (Heroic Minion)
    PL 8 (45p)

    Abilities
    STR 8 STA - AGL0 DEX 0 FGT 4 INT - AWE 0 PRE -
    Skills
    Perception 4 (+4)
    Advantages
    Fast Grab, Improved Hold

    Powers
    Undead
    Immunity 30 (fortitude), Senses 2 (darkvision)
    Horde
    Enhanced Close Attack 4 (Fades*), Growth 6 (Innate, Permanent, Fades*), Extra Limbs 6 (Fades*), Multiattack on STR-Damage (Fades*), Protection 9 (Fades, Limited to single target attacks**), Immunity 12 (being moved, grabs & snares; Limited to single target attacks**), Senses 1 (radius vision)

    Defenses
    Dodge 1 Parry 1 Fortitude - Will - Toughness 15

    *the Fades flaw works a little different for these 4 effects: each "Dazed" result on a toughness save removes 1 rank, "Staggered" removes 3
    **attacks with the Area or Multiattack extras ignore this defense, same counts for the Takedown advantage
    Last edited by Bothrops; 21st April 2019, 03:11 PM.

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  • FuzzyBoots
    replied
    Re: Mass summons - how do they do combat? New DM + players

    Technically speaking, they can act on the same initiative count as the player, same as anyone else (although, without Active, they only have a single action each round). Players with hordes in combat generally use Aid or Combined Attack to turn multiple rolls into a single attack. Also, don't forget that, as non-Heroic Minions, they go down really quickly against Area effects or Takedown Attack.

    Ultimately, as the GM, it's up to you as to whether these powers are permissable. If it's problematic, ask them to build it a different way to reduce your stress. There are rules for a "Swarm" sort of summon where you assume multiple bodies, but a single set of actions.

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  • GrumpyOldAndy
    started a topic Mass summons - how do they do combat? New DM + players

    Mass summons - how do they do combat? New DM + players

    A new game with all new players started yesterday, one character has the zombie horde power from the Power Profiles books and can summon 32 zombies. Another has the Werewolf quickstart with summon 8 wolves.
    How the heck are you supposed to deal with another 40 sets of rolls in combat?
    The Team Check doesn't seem to answer this at all. As we are all new to playing, I assume we are missing something obvious.
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