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Feint Maneuver: When do you use it?

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  • Feint Maneuver: When do you use it?

    Feinting lets you use a Standard Action to make a target Vulnerable to your next attack.

    In all my M&M games, I can think of less than 5 times a player has used this maneuver. The opportunity cost is simply too high and the benefit is too low. Consider, against a target with a Dodge of 10, you have a chance (contested roll) to reduce their dodge to 5 on your next action. A 25% increase in chance to hit is good, but is it worth a Standard Action?

    I love the flavor of this sort of move, but neither myself nor others I play with ever actually *use* it. Trip is in a similar state; what it does is rarely worth the Action cost.

    So, my question is, how do your groups uses these actions? Do they, even? Have you house ruled it?

  • #2
    Re: Feint Maneuver: When do you use it?

    I've never seen it in play, either in a forum game or IRL. I've been playing since 2e, and never saw it then, either.

    I don't think I'd consider attempting it unless (1) I had a hankering to play a combat trickster, with plenty of such combat maneuvers, AND (2) the character had an Advantage reducing Feint to a Move Action.
    My builds can be found in the Roll Call forum [url=http://roninarmy.com/threads/1719-Rush-s-Characters-(new-Mr-Smooth)?p=68608&viewfull=1#post68608]here[/url]. And, here's the latest version of [url=https://roninarmy.com/threads/1719-Rush-s-Characters-(new-Edge)?p=256421&viewfull=1#post256421]The Cast[/url].
    Currently playing in: [url=https://roninarmy.com/threads/6868-Xenoforce-Earth-s-Strangest-Heroes-Recruiting-2-more-players][color=#d7af50]Xenoforce: Earth's Strangest Heroes[/color][/url].

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    • #3
      Re: Feint Maneuver: When do you use it?

      Looking into it, I found this text under Deception:

      "Uses of Deception in action rounds are generally standard actions, although you can attempt to deceive as a move action by taking a 5 penalty to your check."

      I'm going to have to rethink this! This bit changes everything for me!

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      • #4
        Re: Feint Maneuver: When do you use it?

        Vulnerable: Vulnerable characters are limited in
        their ability to defend themselves, halving their active
        defenses (round up the final value). Defenseless
        supersedes vulnerable.


        In other words, your active defense final values are Dodge and Parry+10, so what Vulnerable does isn't take half your modifier (AKA dodge/parry 10), it takes away half the total (10+10= 20) and half that would leave it at 10, not 15.

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        • #5
          Re: Feint Maneuver: When do you use it?

          Feinting as a move action is, while not hugely reliable due to the -5, still very very good.
          If you weren't going to move that turn anyways, there's no reason not to try no matter how bad you are at Deception.

          Likewise, feinting with high rank Set-Up so your entire team has a much better chance to hit is easily worth the standard action.

          > In other words, your active defense final values are Dodge and Parry+10, so what Vulnerable does isn't take half your modifier (AKA dodge/parry 10), it takes away half the total (10+10= 20) and half that would leave it at 10, not 15.
          This is incorrect. The to-hit DCs are based on routine checks. Reference page 14 of the DHH: "attack checks are made against a DC of 10 + the appropriate defense". You halve the defense, but can't touch the 10 from their routine check.

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          • #6
            Re: Feint Maneuver: When do you use it?

            Originally posted by Nunya B View Post
            Feinting as a move action is, while not hugely reliable due to the -5, still very very good.
            If you weren't going to move that turn anyways, there's no reason not to try no matter how bad you are at Deception.

            Likewise, feinting with high rank Set-Up so your entire team has a much better chance to hit is easily worth the standard action.

            > In other words, your active defense final values are Dodge and Parry+10, so what Vulnerable does isn't take half your modifier (AKA dodge/parry 10), it takes away half the total (10+10= 20) and half that would leave it at 10, not 15.
            This is incorrect. The to-hit DCs are based on routine checks. Reference page 14 of the DHH: "attack checks are made against a DC of 10 + the appropriate defense". You halve the defense, but can't touch the 10 from their routine check.
            Well, when you put it that way, I can see why. That's actually how I was doing it in my campaign the first time around, and somehow I thought it was initially wrong.

            Only problem is that if you do it it like that, how do you figure out how to half a bonus of 0 dodge/parry by itself? It also seems like it would have some pretty diminishing returns on lower dodge/parry/higher toughness values.

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            • #7
              Re: Feint Maneuver: When do you use it?

              > Only problem is that if you do it it like that, how do you figure out how to half a bonus of 0 dodge/parry by itself?
              Zero divided by two is zero. And technically, anyone with negative Dodge or Parry gets harder to hit if Vulnerable.
              House rules are common, because this is silly.

              > It also seems like it would have some pretty diminishing returns on lower dodge/parry/higher toughness values.
              It does, yes.

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              • #8
                Re: Feint Maneuver: When do you use it?

                It received more use in 2E, which had Sneak Attack, which let you inflict more damage (subject to PL) on Vulnerable targets, and where there was an additional -2. And yes, most people used it as a Move action. There was even a Challenge system where you could buy off the penalty with a Feat (in 3E, an Advantage) for characters who specialized in it.
                [url=http://roninarmy.com/threads/996]My Builds[/url]

                [b]Current games:[/b]
                [url=http://www.echoesofthemultiverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=839]The J.V. Team (GM)[/URL]

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                • #9
                  Re: Feint Maneuver: When do you use it?

                  I'm working on a character that would feint quite often. Would the advantage for feinting with acrobatics (Agile Feint?) and skill mastery (which the character already has) work together ?
                  Not really concerned about feinting as a move action, since it's for a Set Up kind of style, but that might come in handy... for that -5.
                  What are some of these houserules for vulnerable characters with negative dodge/parry?

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                  • #10
                    Re: Feint Maneuver: When do you use it?

                    Yes, Skill Mastery would still apply with Agile Feint if said Skill Mastery was in Acrobatics.

                    As regards houserules for negative PL, there's a few ways you could handle it. One is multiply the negative value by 150% so that you again get halves. Another is to apply a static penalty, maybe -2 for Vulnerable and -5 for Defenseless. A fairly common houserule for people whose bonuses dip to 0 for below due to Weaken, Affliction, and/or combat maneuvers is to treat them as Defenseless, allowing routine attacks and automatic criticals if the attacker chooses to roll.
                    [url=http://roninarmy.com/threads/996]My Builds[/url]

                    [b]Current games:[/b]
                    [url=http://www.echoesofthemultiverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=839]The J.V. Team (GM)[/URL]

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                    • #11
                      Re: Feint Maneuver: When do you use it?

                      Originally posted by Alderic78 View Post
                      I'm working on a character that would feint quite often. Would the advantage for feinting with acrobatics (Agile Feint?) and skill mastery (which the character already has) work together ?
                      They should work together just fine.

                      Originally posted by Alderic78 View Post
                      What are some of these houserules for vulnerable characters with negative dodge/parry?
                      I've decided to houserule it as follows:
                      Whenever a target is rendered Vulnerable or Defenseless, their active defenses are, at minimum, reduced by 1 if Vulnerable, or by 2 if Defenseless, even if such causes a defense to become negative.

                      I thought of using larger numbers, such as 2 and 4/5, but since this was really just to handle minions with low/negative defenses, lower values seemed more appropriate.
                      My builds can be found in the Roll Call forum [url=http://roninarmy.com/threads/1719-Rush-s-Characters-(new-Mr-Smooth)?p=68608&viewfull=1#post68608]here[/url]. And, here's the latest version of [url=https://roninarmy.com/threads/1719-Rush-s-Characters-(new-Edge)?p=256421&viewfull=1#post256421]The Cast[/url].
                      Currently playing in: [url=https://roninarmy.com/threads/6868-Xenoforce-Earth-s-Strangest-Heroes-Recruiting-2-more-players][color=#d7af50]Xenoforce: Earth's Strangest Heroes[/color][/url].

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                      • #12
                        Re: Feint Maneuver: When do you use it?

                        Ok... thanks for the info... the project can still continue.

                        On the proposed houserules... I've done some tests on Defenseless... and it's quite brutal... I'll see how some static reduction works, and go from there...

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