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Is the +1 to power rank for Extra Effort underpowered for offenses?

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  • Is the +1 to power rank for Extra Effort underpowered for offenses?

    It seems like for only one single use and to suffer fatigue, a +1 to an effect really isn't anything much when you're adding to a resistance DC.

    Whether it's a attack roll-based or perception range offense, taking the extra action or even actions with extraordinary effort makes so much more difference. Causing your opponent to roll multiple times in a turn can drastically change a result, if not straight up increase it with Affliction bearing things like Cumulative extras.

    The only time I can really think of a way that the +1 rank could be particularly useful is having an effect like Create or Transform which has exponential, doubling increases in how much it can make or effect. Problem is, does it only add the +1 for that one round? I assume as long as the "standard action use" is sustained.

    Is there anything I'm not seeing? It seems that if someone were wanting to receive a significant bonus to an effect, you'd better be off trying to utilize some of the stuff in the Gamemaster's Guide and the Ability Drain, which allows bonuses to +5, as high as the cost can be. Either that, or Hero High's Holding Back advantage.

    Kind of wondering if extra effort giving a +2/+4 circumstance bonus per extra effort level, if it were restricted to the resistance DCs, would be a fair way of getting a needed offense boost.

    The main reason I'm wondering about this is I'm trying to think of an option that's not as extreme as Hero High's "super form" but something that's decent enough to work with area/perception range attacks that usually cannot benefit from the high tradeoffs of attack roll-based abilities.

  • #2
    Re: Is the +1 to power rank for Extra Effort underpowered for offenses?

    It's only until the start of your next turn in 3e, and yeah it's generally terrible.
    You can get a +2 on any check. You can get a second attack. You can get a free save against an affliction. You can pull an entirely new power out of thin air.
    Unless +1 rank doubles your power's effect the +1 rank mode of EE isn't worth it compared to the above.

    Making it a +2 or +3 rank would go a decent way towards making it less bad. It'd still likely be inferior to just double-attacking, but it'd have a niche.

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    • #3
      Re: Is the +1 to power rank for Extra Effort underpowered for offenses?

      Yes, it's underpowered for offense (and defense) powers. It's much more useful on powers that double effectiveness or add new features per rank, like Create doubling volume per rank. +1 rank is essentially 20% chance to inflict 1 additional degree of failure.

      I've considered various alternatives, hoping to offer some attractive and mutually exclusive options with the gold standard of gaining an extra standard action. Ideally, the various options would be competitive with each other, and some powers would benefit more from one option than another. The two variants I've come closest to implementing are:

      1) You inflict 1 extra degree of failure on the enemy (equivalent to +5 effect rank). This (and anything that increases effect rank or reduces enemy resistance) has the problem that it is more valuable at high degrees of failure than low ones, e.g. for Damage, turning 1 degree of failure into 2 isn't that bad since the enemy is only Dazed for 1 round, but turning Staggered into Incapacitated is really good.

      2) The enemy suffers 1 degree of failure even if they pass their check. This one disproportionately benefits afflictions that inflict multiple conditions even at 1 degree, e.g. Tempus's (from ECK) power that has only the 1st degree, but inflicts Dazed/Vulnerable/Something else.

      I think both options may be too strong in some way, but I won't know for sure until I have a chance to playtest them.

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      • #4
        Re: Is the +1 to power rank for Extra Effort underpowered for offenses?

        I suspect it probably originated under an idea of "just enough to exceed Impervious" back in 1E and didn't keep up with things like Power Attack becoming common, and then something everyone had to some degree. The other thing which might make it more useful, is that the game was always a little ambiguous about whether you could invoke it as a reaction, which would at least allow you to use it after you were certain you were going to hit.
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        • #5
          Re: Is the +1 to power rank for Extra Effort underpowered for offenses?

          It seems that pretty much everyone's in agreement.

          Now while we're on this topic, what does this Untapped Potential advantage mean when it says "you can increase a power by 3 ranks rather than 2"

          I only know this advantage through Herolab, so I don't have the Hero High book that it actually appears in. Is this a mistype or is there some hidden rules I am not familiar with in Hero High's book?

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          • #6
            Re: Is the +1 to power rank for Extra Effort underpowered for offenses?

            I'm trying to find it now, but essentially IIRC it's that you're able to increase the rank of a non-permanent power by 2 with Extra Effort and the Advantage in question you get three ranks.

            Again, looking for the reference.
            Last edited by Bladewind; 26th February 2018, 01:23 PM.
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            • #7
              Re: Is the +1 to power rank for Extra Effort underpowered for offenses?

              Check the 2e book too. Half of the 3e Book was copypasted.
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              • #8
                Re: Is the +1 to power rank for Extra Effort underpowered for offenses?

                Checked Deluxe Hero's Handbook, DCA Hero's Handbook and the SRD which is available online.

                I'll check my other books (including 2nd Ed) when I get home.
                [QUOTE=Enigmatic One;178799][FONT=Verdana]Note to self, get Bruce and his Bat-force to take this one.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

                [URL="https://www.dropbox.com/s/0m9d5ob31w5pfjw/Earth%20218.pdf?dl=0"]Earth 218 - JLA Academy Setting[/URL]
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                [URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/1554-The-Merge-3E-(OOC)?p=124944#post124944"]The Merge Character Sheet Lists[/URL]
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                • #9
                  Re: Is the +1 to power rank for Extra Effort underpowered for offenses?

                  Found it.

                  It's in 2nd Edition. In 2nd Edition, the benefits of Extra Effort are indeed "Increase a power by 2 ranks for one round."
                  Untapped Potential references that.

                  In 3rd Edition, the benefits of EE "increase an effect rank by +1 until the start of the hero's next turn."
                  [QUOTE=Enigmatic One;178799][FONT=Verdana]Note to self, get Bruce and his Bat-force to take this one.[/FONT][/QUOTE]

                  [URL="https://www.dropbox.com/s/0m9d5ob31w5pfjw/Earth%20218.pdf?dl=0"]Earth 218 - JLA Academy Setting[/URL]
                  [URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/28-Blade-s-Third-Edition-Builds?p=109&viewfull=1#post109"]Blade's Builds[/URL]

                  [URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/1554-The-Merge-3E-(OOC)?p=124944#post124944"]The Merge Character Sheet Lists[/URL]
                  [URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/4284-The-Merge-Cosmic-Quandaries-3e-Interest-check?p=167246&viewfull=1#post167246"]The Cosmic Merge Character Sheet List[/URL]

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                  • #10
                    Re: Is the +1 to power rank for Extra Effort underpowered for offenses?

                    Originally posted by Bladewind View Post
                    Found it.

                    It's in 2nd Edition. In 2nd Edition, the benefits of Extra Effort are indeed "Increase a power by 2 ranks for one round."
                    Untapped Potential references that.

                    In 3rd Edition, the benefits of EE "increase an effect rank by +1 until the start of the hero's next turn."
                    And now that makes yet another change from 2e to 3e that I will never understand, including:

                    1. How the issue with Affects Objects and Players with Absent Stamina was addressed in 2e's FAQ yet were completely ignored in 3e, thus leaving GMs and players to assume that anyone with absent Stamina automatically failed a Damage 1 Fortitude Affects Objects by the highest degree.
                    2. How Impervious, if you don't resort to using alternate options hidden within a Power Profile, is useless.
                    3. How no one in their right mind would take anything less than the maximum you can on Penetrating with how it works in 3e

                    And this is someone who has yet to play 2e. Even then, overall I prefer 3e's sense of balance, and the good stuff from 2e seems extremely easy to port over from the looks of it. Especially considering how this advantage and the book it comes in is written apparently...

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                    • #11
                      Re: Is the +1 to power rank for Extra Effort underpowered for offenses?

                      Originally posted by ArmoredAnathema View Post
                      And now that makes yet another change from 2e to 3e that I will never understand, including:

                      1. How the issue with Affects Objects and Players with Absent Stamina was addressed in 2e's FAQ yet were completely ignored in 3e, thus leaving GMs and players to assume that anyone with absent Stamina automatically failed a Damage 1 Fortitude Affects Objects by the highest degree.
                      2. How Impervious, if you don't resort to using alternate options hidden within a Power Profile, is useless.
                      3. How no one in their right mind would take anything less than the maximum you can on Penetrating with how it works in 3e

                      And this is someone who has yet to play 2e. Even then, overall I prefer 3e's sense of balance, and the good stuff from 2e seems extremely easy to port over from the looks of it. Especially considering how this advantage and the book it comes in is written apparently...
                      As someone who has played both and remembers the great debates/arguments over which was better when 3E came out, both 2E and 3E have their pros and cons. There are definitely several things in 3E that still ambiguous at times, but don't have a 3E clarification and still have to rely on a similar 2E FAQ to answer. I have enjoyed games run in both editions. Personally I tend to run 2.5 (basically 3E with some of the 2E parts house ruled back in).
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