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  • Another attempt an an All or Nothing Attack

    So in practice here's my taken on Kyle's suggestion of Infinite Mass Punch.

    IMP ver 3.0: All-Out Attack,Pow Attack, Extraordinary Effort, Improved Aim, Improved Critical 4, Luck 3, Immunity (Self-harm), Penetrating Strength based Damage 1, Tiring = 13 CP

    Speedster has:
    Strength 1
    Unarmed +9

    With MIP ver 3.0 this should happen

    AOA: reduces my active def, buffs my attack roll bonus (+14 to hit, Damage 2)
    Pow Att: reduces my attack roll bonus, buffs my damage out put (+9 to hit Damage 7)
    Imp Aim: adds 10 to attack roll at the cost of a standard action (+19 to hit Damage 7)
    Extra Effort (Slam Att): -2 to att roll +2 Damage out put moving at full speed (+17 to hit Damage 9)
    2nd Extra Effort: up grades original bonus damage to 5 [IOW: really adds a +3] (+17 to hit Damage 12)
    Luck 3: is my insurance policy from All Sate, Geico, Progressive
    and
    Imp Crit 4: is just there to add insult to injury and pour salt to open wounds

    So IMP ver 3.0 +17 to hit, Penetrating Damage 12? Also since majority of the extra damage are circumstantial bonuses from Advantages are they counted as Penetrating as well? I'm asking cause technically there is only 1 rank of Penetrating in the formula.
    So this is still within PL limits...technically right?

  • #2
    Re: Another attempt an an All or Nothing Attack

    Wow, does that seem complicated. Okay, question: why not just buy ranks of Damage and Flaw it with Tiring and Distracting? If you want to push past PL caps, add Multiattack. I'm dubious about how valuable Penetrating is, but WTF, throw it in.

    Damage 10 (Extras: Multiattack, Penetrating 10; Flaws: Distracting, Tiring) for 15pp
    If that's not enough Damage, you can still Power Attack. Note that some GM's are dubious about combining both All-Out Attack and Power Attack at full value without some restrictions.

    Penetrating is an iffy value. It's really only worth anything if you're up against someone who has tons of Impervious and you otherwise wouldn't be able to get near them (even with Power Attack). That's a pretty rare occurrence. Also, you only get as many ranks of Penetrating as you buy; it doesn't expand with things like Power Attack or Multiattack.
    Last edited by badpenny; 10-22-2014, 06:44 AM.
    Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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    • #3
      Re: Another attempt an an All or Nothing Attack

      To give this some context, this question is spread over http://roninarmy.com/threads/1177-Ho...e-complication and http://roninarmy.com/threads/1168-Mo...ltiple-Attacks. Jhyarelle79, you really don't need to keep posting new topics. Just pick one and stick with it, please.
      [url=http://roninarmy.com/threads/996]My Builds[/url]

      [b]Current games:[/b]
      [url=http://www.echoesofthemultiverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=839]The J.V. Team (GM)[/URL]

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      • #4
        Re: Another attempt an an All or Nothing Attack

        If the OP in this thread is the distillation of those threads, I'd be too scared to read them...because that's one complicated build.
        Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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        • #5
          Re: Another attempt an an All or Nothing Attack

          The basic concept is fairly simple, trying to build a PL-breaking attack that can only be used in extreme situations. The rest is sugar.
          [url=http://roninarmy.com/threads/996]My Builds[/url]

          [b]Current games:[/b]
          [url=http://www.echoesofthemultiverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=839]The J.V. Team (GM)[/URL]

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          • #6
            Re: Another attempt an an All or Nothing Attack

            This sounds exactly like the kind of attack that should be a power stunt anyway. Keep all your notes, clear it with your GM, but don't put it on your character sheet. Any attack you don't expect to use at least once per combat doesn't need to purchased, IMHO. If this is a big devastating hail-mary attack that you would only use against the world-cracking Big Bad, you will have time to build the stunt at the table if need be, and tailor it to the situation instead of trying to predict the worst case scenario and plan for it before the game's even begun.

            I also think that making the megaultrapunch 5000 ahead of time for whatever character is anticlimactic (or reverse-climactic, if there's a word for that). This is obviously based on Flash's Lightning Punch or his around-the-world clothesline attacks, but the reason that was so epic is that 1) he'd never done that before because 1a) he'd never needed to do that before. Narratively speaking, it's much more interesting that he had to push himself beyond his expected limits and practically destroy himself than it would have been if you'd always known he had a nuke in his back pocket.

            TL;DR Don't design his final move before you play him.
            My old [URL="http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=743877#p743877"]Atomic Think Tank[/URL] thread
            My current character thread: [URL="https://roninarmy.com/threads/6194-The-Sound-of-My-Eyebeams-JDRook-s-builds-and-blather?p=233536&viewfull=1#post233536"]The Sound of my Eyebeams[/URL][URL="http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=743877#p743877"]
            [/URL]
            I will build characters in HeroLab for you! Send me [URL="https://www.fiverr.com/jdrook/transcribe-a-mutants-and-masterminds-pc-in-herolab?funnel=6e71f15f-207e-49f4-bf35-9ceb23b979a7"]your finished design[/URL] or even [URL="https://www.fiverr.com/jdrook/create-a-mutants-and-masterminds-pc-in-herolab?context=advanced_search&context_type=rating&funnel=2014103117123522519608360"]your original concept[/URL]!

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            • #7
              Re: Another attempt an an All or Nothing Attack

              Originally posted by JDRook View Post
              TL;DR Don't design his final move before you play him.
              Actually, that wasn't TL;DR at all. Nicely said.
              Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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              • #8
                Re: Another attempt an an All or Nothing Attack

                Originally posted by badpenny View Post
                Penetrating is an iffy value. It's really only worth anything if you're up against someone who has tons of Impervious and you otherwise wouldn't be able to get near them (even with Power Attack). That's a pretty rare occurrence. Also, you only get as many ranks of Penetrating as you buy; it doesn't expand with things like Power Attack or Multiattack.
                Multiattack explicitly applies after the impervious/penetrating step in working out damage.

                The calculation should work out as:

                Add all damage bonuses except Multiattack.
                Check to see if your damage is high enough to bypass impervious.
                If it isn't and you don't have penetrating ranks, you are now done.
                If it isn't and you do have penetrating ranks, replace your damage with the min of your penetrating ranks or remaining damage.
                Add in the damage from Multiattack, if applicable.

                So yah, in this case, penetrating 1 isn't all that helpful, if it applies, you shouldn't have done the power attack and what not.

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                • #9
                  Re: Another attempt an an All or Nothing Attack

                  Originally posted by FuzzyBoots View Post
                  The basic concept is fairly simple, trying to build a PL-breaking attack that can only be used in extreme situations. The rest is sugar.
                  In that case throw in some linked Weaken Toughness as well, since we are gaming the system rather than playing the game.
                  “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”

                  -Doctor Who

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                  • #10
                    Re: Another attempt an an All or Nothing Attack

                    Originally posted by saint_matthew View Post
                    In that case throw in some linked Weaken Toughness as well, since we are gaming the system rather than playing the game.
                    Why not do both?

                    Personally, I'd like for there to be more legitimate ways for characters to exceed PL caps in a significant way, as it's very thematically appropriate. Those moments of last ditch desperation where the hero puts everything they have left into one final gambit are a staple of superhero fiction. Those moments are also one of the few areas where M&M doesn't really manage to capture the feel of superhero fiction without resorting to exploiting the rules to a level that verges on abusive. Extra Effort on it's own just doesn't really cut it, and while you can do a lot with creative narration and descriptions, there's something to be said about generating really high numbers with the roll of a die.
                    Punching For Justice

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                    • #11
                      Re: Another attempt an an All or Nothing Attack

                      Originally posted by Kyle View Post
                      Personally, I'd like for there to be more legitimate ways for characters to exceed PL caps in a significant way, as it's very thematically appropriate.
                      There already is: For a speedster it would be Slam, combined with there normal strike damage, with improved power attack: Straight off the bat a damage effect of potentially 17 (strike 10, +1 for slam, +1 for moving at your top speed in a slam, + 5 improved power attack damage, - 5 power attack atk roll). That's without the use of extra effort which can raise the level of damage by +1 in like three different ways for this specific attack (speed, power or straight up strength)

                      And then you as a speedster have to save versus half the damage output you just put out & fatigue if you use Extra Effort: Got to love system mastery.

                      Edit: Please feel free to correct me if you see any errors in my mathematics, it has been known to happen.
                      Last edited by saint_matthew; 10-23-2014, 02:00 AM.
                      “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”

                      -Doctor Who

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                      • #12
                        Re: Another attempt an an All or Nothing Attack

                        Originally posted by Kyle View Post
                        Why not do both?

                        Personally, I'd like for there to be more legitimate ways for characters to exceed PL caps in a significant way, as it's very thematically appropriate. Those moments of last ditch desperation where the hero puts everything they have left into one final gambit are a staple of superhero fiction. Those moments are also one of the few areas where M&M doesn't really manage to capture the feel of superhero fiction without resorting to exploiting the rules to a level that verges on abusive. Extra Effort on it's own just doesn't really cut it, and while you can do a lot with creative narration and descriptions, there's something to be said about generating really high numbers with the roll of a die.
                        Thank you. You so far are the only on who understands what I'm trying to do, though it needs some work. I'm not trying to break the game, but I'm sure as hell gonna give it every thing my PC has if I'm backed into a corner at the 13th hour. Exactly like what Flash did in Justice League Unlimited where he ran around the world so fast gathering momentum to slam on to Brainiac/Luther. After the attack,he was so exhausted that he was pulled into the Speed Force and it took the the most of the League to get him back.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Another attempt an an All or Nothing Attack

                          Originally posted by Jhyarelle79 View Post
                          After the attack,he was so exhausted that he was pulled into the Speed Force and it took the the most of the League to get him back.
                          That would be a complication.
                          “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”

                          -Doctor Who

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                          • #14
                            Re: Another attempt an an All or Nothing Attack

                            What the OP is failing to understand is that what you see/read in fiction has to be interpreted as where it intersects the plot and is this something the character routinely does. That all or nothing effort of the Flash's is best served by working something out with the GM, not statting something up ahead of time. This is a power stunt, pure and simple, probably with some optional rules thrown in, e.g. Last-Ditch Effort option from 2e's Mastermind Manual where you trade damage levels for Extra Effort (once you've used Extraordinary Effort), etc.

                            There's not really a way to build a power that breaks PL and has a GM signing off on it being a regular part of your sheet. I'd simply tell you save it for when it happens because your GM is the one who's going to be triggering the event.
                            Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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                            • #15
                              Re: Another attempt an an All or Nothing Attack

                              Originally posted by badpenny View Post
                              What the OP is failing to understand is that what you see/read in fiction has to be interpreted as where it intersects the plot and is this something the character routinely does. That all or nothing effort of the Flash's is best served by working something out with the GM, not statting something up ahead of time. This is a power stunt, pure and simple, probably with some optional rules thrown in, e.g. Last-Ditch Effort option from 2e's Mastermind Manual where you trade damage levels for Extra Effort (once you've used Extraordinary Effort), etc.

                              There's not really a way to build a power that breaks PL and has a GM signing off on it being a regular part of your sheet. I'd simply tell you save it for when it happens because your GM is the one who's going to be triggering the event.
                              Yes and kind of: You can certainly max out your damage for the first part: For a speedster it would be Slam, combined with there normal strike damage, with improved power attack: Straight off the bat a damage effect of potentially 17 (strike 10, +1 for slam, +1 for moving at your top speed in a slam, + 5 improved power attack damage, - 5 power attack atk roll). That's without the use of extra effort which can raise the level of damage by +1 in like three different ways for this specific attack (speed, power or straight up strength).

                              Of course that's not going outside the power level structure so its powerful without being over powered & also not something you'd do every day.

                              But the second part of sucked into the speed force, or something like that is pure story like you pointed out & as you pointed out requires no specific mechanics outside of whatever your GM say it does & keeping in mind that you can always tap complications on your own (if your GM is the type that allows that).
                              “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”

                              -Doctor Who

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