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[3E] Power Profile: Teleportation Power Question

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  • [3E] Power Profile: Teleportation Power Question

    So I was using the power profile for ideas for a teleportation build, and I ran into this:

    Blink Teleport: Reaction Teleport 1 (Imminent Attack) [5p]

    So I kept reading it, and this power seems uncommonly good. At power 1, you have a range of like 60 feet, right? So even with just 5 points it can beat most +1 Area powers, isn't that right? I'm still learning the system, so I assume I've missed something, but .. with this power.. isn't the only way a character can be hit is to be struck by a surprise attack or hit with a Area 2 attack? I mean, barring thing like perception based attacks and mental attacks and the like, correct?

  • #2
    Re: [3E] Power Profile: Teleportation Power Question

    Unless you add some additional Extras to the Teleport, you can only Teleport yourself to places to places you can accurately sense; ergo, an enemy that can futz with your senses will be a perfect set up for another enemy to smack you.

    Likewise, a Perception Shaped Area effect will probably still hit you, unless you can Teleport to a new location where you can no longer perceive the target point... Which is tricky to do, since you have to have perceived your new location from the old one.

    "Imminent Attack" as the trigger condition for the Reaction also implies you knew the attack was coming... Given the sheer number of ways an opponent in a superpower setting can sneak up on you, it's not foolproof.

    Yes, it's a nice little trick for teleporters or speedsters to have. Reaction Shrinking or Reaction Insubstantial are nice defensive bonuses for size-shifters and phasing heroes too. But, hey, it's a superhero game. That's part of the deal.

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    • #3
      Re: [3E] Power Profile: Teleportation Power Question

      Also "Imminent Attack" is if the character thinks hes going to be attacked he can "jump" to one place he can perceive in 60 feet.

      I have a character with that power and my Master Play at times made ​​a feint, so my character reacts jumping (usually behind the aggressor) and receiving in any way a blow that did not even expect.

      To me, that is another valid method, in addition to Area 2, Attacks perception, mental attacks or surprise attacks.
      "Nothing is more painful than the betrayal of an angel"

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      • #4
        Re: [3E] Power Profile: Teleportation Power Question

        It does seem a bit cheap for the benefit though, given this is a game that got rid of the 2e Evasion. As written it looks like it'd jerk you away from most non-areas, too, and there seems little way to defeat it for most characters since it Reaction, not Triggered.

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        • #5
          Re: [3E] Power Profile: Teleportation Power Question

          It's not that hard to get around it. The teleporter has to be aware of the attack to avoid it. The Reaction trigger can't be so broad it covers every eventuality.
          • Subtle 1 attacks (that aren't Perceived); Stealth and failed Perception falls into this camp as well.
          • All Subtle 2 attacks.
          • Attackers who are Concealed from the teleporter.
          • Perception Area and Perception Range attacks.

          And remember, Perception checks are -1/10 feet so an attacker who's not even out of tactical range could effectively target the teleporter.
          Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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          • #6
            Re: [3E] Power Profile: Teleportation Power Question

            Originally posted by badpenny View Post
            It's not that hard to get around it. The teleporter has to be aware of the attack to avoid it. The Reaction trigger can't be so broad it covers every eventuality.
            • Subtle 1 attacks (that aren't Perceived); Stealth and failed Perception falls into this camp as well.
            • All Subtle 2 attacks.
            • Attackers who are Concealed from the teleporter.
            • Perception Area and Perception Range attacks.

            And remember, Perception checks are -1/10 feet so an attacker who's not even out of tactical range could effectively target the teleporter.
            There are broad swaths of characters who have none of those abilities other than basic Stealth capability; in fact I'd bet once you get outside of specialists, most are. And I seriously doubt most GMs are requiring a visible attacker within most ranges to make perception attacks just to see that's happening, since it would mean most people would be left with reduced defense value. And its not even clear to me that regular Perception range attacks will necessarily work, since you don't get to reposition your attack because your target isn't where you think it is.

            So, saying "it doesn't protect you against people who can do reliable surprise attacks" doesn't encourage me much; its like the people in 1e who used to throw around Drain as the solution to problems like every character had it.

            So I stand by my opinion that it'd avoid the majority of attacks from the majority of opponents.

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            • #7
              Re: [3E] Power Profile: Teleportation Power Question

              Yep, it would avoid the majority of attack from the majority of opponents. So does Invisibility, Intangibility, sufficent ranks of Impervious Toughness... Or any of a half-dozen other powers.

              It's a superhero game. That's par for the course.

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              • #8
                Re: [3E] Power Profile: Teleportation Power Question

                Originally posted by Batgirl III View Post
                Yep, it would avoid the majority of attack from the majority of opponents. So does Invisibility, Intangibility, sufficent ranks of Impervious Toughness... Or any of a half-dozen other powers.

                It's a superhero game. That's par for the course.
                +1, although I personally think Teleport is overpowered at low ranks and underpowered at high ranks in much the same way as Flight. 1 rank and you can travel through most barriers as long as you can target your destination (kind of a limited Permeate 3) and using Precise allows the 'porter to escape any Grab, bindings or essentially any entrapment descriptor (worth 10p of Immunity easily). I personally like Nite Owl's houserule (used on NO's version of your Doctor Marvel (http://roninarmy.com/threads/766-Bat...ll=1#post32173) of frontloading Flight cost as a rank 3 Movement Effect and Linking it to Speed, and I think Teleport should be treated similarly.
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                My current character thread: [URL="https://roninarmy.com/threads/6194-The-Sound-of-My-Eyebeams-JDRook-s-builds-and-blather?p=233536&viewfull=1#post233536"]The Sound of my Eyebeams[/URL][URL="http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=743877#p743877"]
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                • #9
                  Re: [3E] Power Profile: Teleportation Power Question

                  Originally posted by Darkdreamer View Post
                  There are broad swaths of characters who have none of those abilities other than basic Stealth capability; in fact I'd bet once you get outside of specialists, most are.
                  I don't know what kinds of games you play in, but look through a Freedom/Emerald City source book and you have plenty of characters with lots of abilities like these.

                  And I seriously doubt most GMs are requiring a visible attacker within most ranges to make perception attacks just to see that's happening, since it would mean most people would be left with reduced defense value.
                  The perception checks I mentioned are the ones generated by Subtle 1 (DC 20) or by an attacker using Stealth. There is no Perception check needed to attack and I never said that. What I did say was that if the teleporter couldn't perceive the attack, the Reaction trigger isn't going to activate if it's "when attacked." It's too broad. It needs to be specific like "when touched." That's objective.

                  And its not even clear to me that regular Perception range attacks will necessarily work, since you don't get to reposition your attack because your target isn't where you think it is.
                  This follows "what is an attack?" I'd argue that the Perception-range attack wouldn't even qualify under the "when attacked" trigger, because you have no chance at any defense--you only resist. If the Reaction trigger was when "mentally attacked" you have an objective trigger again: the presence of a mental descriptor on the attack. This is why for things like Nullify/Weaken you have not only the Broad modifier but Simultaneous. You have to pay for overly broad descriptors and the same is true for [Reaction] triggers.
                  Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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                  • #10
                    Re: [3E] Power Profile: Teleportation Power Question

                    Originally posted by JDRook View Post
                    +1, although I personally think Teleport is overpowered at low ranks and underpowered at high ranks in much the same way as Flight. 1 rank and you can travel through most barriers as long as you can target your destination (kind of a limited Permeate 3) and using Precise allows the 'porter to escape any Grab, bindings or essentially any entrapment descriptor (worth 10p of Immunity easily). I personally like Nite Owl's houserule (used on NO's version of your Doctor Marvel (http://roninarmy.com/threads/766-Bat...ll=1#post32173) of frontloading Flight cost as a rank 3 Movement Effect and Linking it to Speed, and I think Teleport should be treated similarly.
                    So the Movement effect lets you fly and the linked Speed determines your speed. For Teleportation, the distance.

                    That's a very interesting idea.
                    Penny's Build Party - Playable builds - M&M 2.5 featuring Damage Roll combat

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                    • #11
                      Re: [3E] Power Profile: Teleportation Power Question

                      Originally posted by Batgirl III View Post
                      Yep, it would avoid the majority of attack from the majority of opponents. So does Invisibility, Intangibility, sufficent ranks of Impervious Toughness... Or any of a half-dozen other powers.

                      It's a superhero game. That's par for the course.
                      I'll give you Intangibility, but I don't agree with the rest. Invisibility makes it more difficult to attack, but its not automatic, and plenty of attackers have non-Toughness attacks. So I'm afraid since I don't buy the premise, I don't buy the conclusion. To me there's a significant difference in degree here.

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                      • #12
                        Re: [3E] Power Profile: Teleportation Power Question

                        Originally posted by badpenny View Post
                        I don't know what kinds of games you play in, but look through a Freedom/Emerald City source book and you have plenty of characters with lots of abilities like these.
                        I've got a lot of the first, and I disagree. Subtle powers attackers and those with Concealment are not common, and the only types who typically have high Stealth are skillmonkeys, which are far from the majority.

                        The perception checks I mentioned are the ones generated by Subtle 1 (DC 20) or by an attacker using Stealth. There is no Perception check needed to attack and I never said that. What I did say was that if the teleporter couldn't perceive the attack, the Reaction trigger isn't going to activate if it's "when attacked." It's too broad. It needs to be specific like "when touched." That's objective.
                        "When attacked" is one of the examples listed under Reaction. In fact, its listed in the same line as "when touched." So you may think its too broad, and I may, but the book doesn't seem to agree so we can't expect people using it in the wild to do so.


                        This follows "what is an attack?" I'd argue that the Perception-range attack wouldn't even qualify under the "when attacked" trigger, because you have no chance at any defense--you only resist. If the Reaction trigger was when "mentally attacked" you have an objective trigger again: the presence of a mental descriptor on the attack. This is why for things like Nullify/Weaken you have not only the Broad modifier but Simultaneous. You have to pay for overly broad descriptors and the same is true for [Reaction] triggers.
                        Except, as I said, the book does not suggest such. It does indicate you have to watch the degree of utility, but does not in any way discuss a surcharge for a more broad trigger, and "when attacked" is one of the examples given.

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                        • #13
                          Re: [3E] Power Profile: Teleportation Power Question

                          Can't attack that which you cannot see. Invisibility will thus "ignore" lots of attacks because they simply aren't targeted by them. The Invisible Woman and Predator are prime examples.

                          You can hit an invulnerable character as often as you want, but if he has sufficiently high Impervious Toughness, it doesn't matter. He'll "ignore" lots of attacks just because they cannot hurt him. Superman, the Blob, and hundreds of more characters are examples of this.

                          You can hit and hurt a character with high Regeneration, but his rate of healing let's him "ignore" you. Much like his cousin, the Honey Badger, good old Wolverine just don't give a snkict.

                          Superheroes with all sorts of concepts and builds can ignore or avoid a lot of attacks. It's just part of the genre.

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                          • #14
                            Re: [3E] Power Profile: Teleportation Power Question

                            Originally posted by Batgirl III View Post
                            Can't attack that which you cannot see. Invisibility will thus "ignore" lots of attacks because they simply aren't targeted by them. The Invisible Woman and Predator are prime examples.
                            Obviously incorrect, since even invisible characters will often reveal their presence one way or another. It actually requires a very specific build of Concealment to be truly impossible to attack; the vast majority can be attacked by someone with a Readied attack, just with a penalty.


                            You can hit an invulnerable character as often as you want, but if he has sufficiently high Impervious Toughness, it doesn't matter. He'll "ignore" lots of attacks just because they cannot hurt him. Superman, the Blob, and hundreds of more characters are examples of this.
                            But there are a large variety of attacks that don't care about Impervious, too, not just ones with one specific extra. Anything with Penetrating will get something through unless there's a horrific power mismatch, anything strong enough in the first place, and any Affliction. The frequency isn't even vaguely comparable. This is particularly true with 3e Impervious, but even in 2e you had to work to find an opponent who wasn't a minion who actually had no way to hurt an Imprevious target.

                            You can hit and hurt a character with high Regeneration, but his rate of healing let's him "ignore" you. Much like his cousin, the Honey Badger, good old Wolverine just don't give a snkict.
                            Again, does nothing against Affliction, and requires a particularly high Regeneration before its reliably true even for damage, in excess of 10 ranks.

                            Superheroes with all sorts of concepts and builds can ignore or avoid a lot of attacks. It's just part of the genre.
                            Again, matters of degree matter.

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                            • #15
                              Re: [3E] Power Profile: Teleportation Power Question

                              Originally posted by Darkdreamer View Post
                              Again, matters of degree matter.
                              Well, obviously specific cases will rely on the specific conditions. But in the superhero genre in general, one should expect heroes to have very impressive defenses against a wide variety of attacks.

                              Reaction Teleport is not out of line compared to numerous other powerful defenses that can be built.

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