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  • Evade AoE?

    Well, kind of pointed at the problem in an another thread. How could anyone dodge an AoE attack? I mean, you can dodge a full-metal bullet, but you cant dodge a hollow-point bullet, because its basically a 5-inch AoE. You can fly midair, get a grenade flung at you and you wont be able to escape the explosion even if you can instantly get to Mach 4. You can be a teleporter, speedster, flyer, burrower or even have precognition. Doesnt matter - AoE and it hits you.

    I could understand it, if lets say you only could dodge if your movement distance supersedes the area (lets say 50m radius AoE, you can evade if you can move >50m and you cant evade if you only can move <50m), but the way it is now, there is really no need in Attack Bonus if you have AoE.

    One could be literally blind, deaf, attack disabled and use power attack with multiattack [multiple targets] and you would still hit everyone you want, because the worst that could happen would be you dealing only half your bonus damage, even if there is like 30 or 40 difference between your roll and the one you are attacking.

    Evasion allowed to dodge in 2nd edition, but now it only gives a circumstance bonus.

    So, would anyone explain to me please, how it makes sense that your teleporter/speedster cant dodge a firecracker, while your martial artist can make a beautiful dodge-roll to cut the damage of a nuclear missile in half, which exploded a mile away mid-air.
    Last edited by Kasseopea; 10-12-2014, 06:08 AM.

  • #2
    Re: Evade AoE?

    Well, for one, you can't use Multiattack or Power Attack, so it is limited to PL. It does kind of penalize defense shifting a bit in my opinion, but that's readily enough fixed with a house rule that making your Dodge save by, say, two degrees, eliminates the full effect. Alternately, build an immunity to Area Attacks with a check built in.
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    • #3
      Re: Evade AoE?

      Thought about immunity to AoE as well. Would be pretty ambiguous cost though (guess at the GMs discretion). Not using evasion much myself, but one in my group asked about it and i thought maybe one of you would have the answer after searching through the book.

      It should be limited too though (only being able to evade attacks, if you can move in your dodge far enough, so you dont combat-roll out of a meteorite impact)

      Im kind of used to strange tabletop logic (Shadowrun, Dark Eye), but this one blew my mind to be honest and i dont like to houserule stuff. It very often throws off the balance at some point, if done wrong.

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      • #4
        Re: Evade AoE?

        Defensive Roll used to give you the option of using it for either a bonus to Reflex or for your Toughness. That went away and severely nerfs Defensive Roll. I have no idea why anyone would build it with it.

        Originally posted by FuzzyBoots View Post
        It does kind of penalize defense shifting a bit in my opinion, but that's readily enough fixed with a house rule that making your Dodge save by, say, two degrees, eliminates the full effect.
        I'd make that three degrees or buy it down to two degrees with a Feature. I believe this was why Steve changed the mechanics of Evasion to only giving a bonus to avoid half effect--it was too easy to avoid all of the effect for an investment of 2pp.

        Bad guys get to use the same rules, so be careful what you ask for.
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        • #5
          Re: Evade AoE?

          Originally posted by badpenny View Post

          I'd make that three degrees or buy it down to two degrees with a Feature. I believe this was why Steve changed the mechanics of Evasion to only giving a bonus to avoid half effect--it was too easy to avoid all of the effect for an investment of 2pp.
          Yeah, honestly, in the 2e days areas where generally a joke used against supers, even moreso used against PCs. Being Defense shifted shouldn't be that big a downside, since its easy to get the effect to half--and if you're so thoroughly defense shifted you can't deal with that, that's problematic in other areas.

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          • #6
            Re: Evade AoE?

            All Shaped Area attacks have a Dodge DC of 10+Effect Rank, which is capped at one half PL; Evasion adds either a +2 or +5 circumstance bonus to you Dodge Defense. Circumstance bonus aren't subject to PL Caps.

            Assuming the attacker has a maxed out AoE attack, and the defender has a balanced 50/50 Dodge/Toughness split, you're looking at:

            DC 10+(PL*0.5) vs. Def (PL*0.5)+5

            Of course, a character with two ranks in Evasion is probably going to be Dodge-shifted conceptually. So the odds are probably going to be closer to equal or even in the defender's favor.

            Also, rarely will attacker and defender be of equal PL. Enemies lower in PL than the heroes are even less likely to succeed, but still, an indiscriminate effect like a hand grenade is often a mook's best chance to tag the Batman or Flash. This reflects the reality of the comics quite neatly.

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            • #7
              Re: Evade AoE?

              Originally posted by Kasseopea View Post
              So, would anyone explain to me please, how it makes sense that your teleporter/speedster cant dodge a firecracker, while your martial artist can make a beautiful dodge-roll to cut the damage of a nuclear missile in half, which exploded a mile away mid-air.
              The assumption is that the area attack is catching those characters before they have a chance to react. There's also no reason why a Teleporter or Speedster couldn't include two ranks of Evasion into their build. I would for Teleporters like Nightcrawler or Blink who tend to be extremely agile, and for nearly every Speedster.

              There's also the option of taking a readied action to run or teleport out of the radius of the attack if the character is aware it's about to happen.

              If you really wanted to, it would be expensive, but you could build a Reaction Effect that would allow the character to move outside the radius of an area attack.
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              • #8
                Re: Evade AoE?

                The reaction power that would bring you out of there - quite a nice idea. Could be paired with your movement-power into an array and gets only triggered by AoE attacks.

                I tried to tinker something together.

                AoE Dodge:
                Teleport (2/r)
                Accurate (+1/r)
                Reaction (+3/r)
                Limited [AoE, if AoE smaller than TP range, if dodge successful] (-1/r)

                Alternatively "Triggered" is cheaper than "Reaction" and should work somehow too. Someone like The Flash, who has most of his PP into his speedster abilities should be easily able to pay the 5/r though.

                Another way would be with Incorporeal. This way you pretty much evade almost any kind of damage and it has the "reaction" extra already listed
                Last edited by Kasseopea; 10-12-2014, 12:47 PM.

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                • #9
                  Re: Evade AoE?

                  Originally posted by Kasseopea View Post
                  Well, kind of pointed at the problem in an another thread. How could anyone dodge an AoE attack? I mean, you can dodge a full-metal bullet, but you cant dodge a hollow-point bullet, because its basically a 5-inch AoE.
                  Actually M&M 3E wouldn't consider the hollow point to be an area of effect at all. Also you should keep in mind that if you want to oppose a power with a different power that's what countering is for.
                  “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”

                  -Doctor Who

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                  • #10
                    Re: Evade AoE?

                    Unless you're the Atom, a hollow point is not an area of effect by any measure. Not only is the expansion minimal, it only occurs after impact.

                    When a hollow-point bullet strikes a soft target, the pressure created in the pit (the point is, y'know, hollow) forces the material around the inside edge to expand outwards. This increases the axial diameter of the projectile as it passes through the target, creating a larger wound cavity. In my experience, it is very rare to see an expanded hollowppoint round increase it's diameter by much more than ~50%

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                    • #11
                      Re: Evade AoE?

                      Originally posted by Batgirl III View Post
                      Unless you're the Atom, a hollow point is not an area of effect by any measure. Not only is the expansion minimal, it only occurs after impact.

                      When a hollow-point bullet strikes a soft target, the pressure created in the pit (the point is, y'know, hollow) forces the material around the inside edge to expand outwards. This increases the axial diameter of the projectile as it passes through the target, creating a larger wound cavity. In my experience, it is very rare to see an expanded hollowppoint round increase it's diameter by much more than ~50%
                      The expansion of a missile also occurs on impact. But fine, lets say normal arrows vs explosive arrows. You can dodge an arrow, but you cant dodge it, if it explodes on impact. Even if there is nothing to hit behind you for another mile.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Evade AoE?

                        Originally posted by Kasseopea View Post
                        The expansion of a missile also occurs on impact. But fine, lets say normal arrows vs explosive arrows. You can dodge an arrow, but you cant dodge it, if it explodes on impact. Even if there is nothing to hit behind you for another mile.
                        Actually, lots of missiles explode on proximity not impact, especially missiles designed to hit aircraft. Mortar shells and RPGs as well as missiles deigned to hit stationary targets do explode on impact.
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                        • #13
                          Re: Evade AoE?

                          Originally posted by digitalangel View Post
                          Actually, lots of missiles explode on proximity not impact, especially missiles designed to hit aircraft. Mortar shells and RPGs as well as missiles deigned to hit stationary targets do explode on impact.
                          And there are cluster rockets and nuclear missiles and whatever not. We are talking about missiles that could be dodged in "reality", but not in the 3rd edition.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Evade AoE?

                            Explosive ordnance is not at all similar to expanding, small arms ammunition. A 9mm hollow point mushrooms out to roughly 12-15mm in axial diameter... A 76mm HE cannon has a kill radius measured in meters. One is meant to do more damage to a single person than a non-expanding round, the other is meant to kill everybody that happens to be in a general area.

                            And that's just the smallest and the largest of stuff I played with in the Coast Guard. (I was a paperwork clerk, but I kept trying to get into small arms and gun smithing ... Uncle Sam had more need for my superhuman ability to type 120 WPM and keep a file cabinet on an icebreak alphabetized. C'est la vive.)

                            The Navy and Air Force guys have the really, really big stuff.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Evade AoE?

                              Originally posted by Batgirl III View Post
                              Explosive ordnance is not at all similar to expanding, small arms ammunition. A 9mm hollow point mushrooms out to roughly 12-15mm in axial diameter... A 76mm HE cannon has a kill radius measured in meters. One is meant to do more damage to a single person than a non-expanding round, the other is meant to kill everybody that happens to be in a general area.

                              And that's just the smallest and the largest of stuff I played with in the Coast Guard. (I was a paperwork clerk, but I kept trying to get into small arms and gun smithing ... Uncle Sam had more need for my superhuman ability to type 120 WPM and keep a file cabinet on an icebreak alphabetized. C'est la vive.)

                              The Navy and Air Force guys have the really, really big stuff.
                              For as much as the whole world loves the 'murican army with its democracy-missiles and liberation-gatlings (not to forget the peace-bombs) that are getting used against civilians because of one terror-attack 13 years ago, i dont think it has much to do with this thread.

                              We are talking about evasion and AoE-attacks being undodgeable by normal means.

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