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  • Questions of Powers

    Alright, I have a new array of power that I need a tad bit of help creating in the rules of M&M that come from other games and the like.

    First - Snatch - From Ragnarok Online- Rogue Class.

    Using this power, you punch an enemy causing both you and the enemy to teleport to a location at random, that can support you.

    The biggest problem I see with this power is just getting the two effects to go off at the same time. I mean, a punch and teleport is pretty easy. But the problem is the range of the personal teleportation. Would the random effect be some sort of limited ability?

    Second - Twincast - From MTG

    I see this one as being fairly simple, but still rather hard. A free action variable, limited to mimicing a spell just cast? Perhaps only able to do it once per turn?


    Third - Stitch in Time - From MTG

    Now this one is kinda simple and hard. The first thing is that its unreliable of course. 50% chance it works. But what should it do? Perhaps a time travel effect, allowing two of me to be there on one turn? Or perhaps a summon effect?

    Fourth - Redirect - From MTG again

    This one is kinda hard too. Mostly the whole taking someone elses spell and throwing it where I want it. Deflect would work if I only wanted to bounce attack spells off my allies back at the casters, but I'm a tad more devious than that or at least looking to be. Some how being able to take their spell (As it is limited to only spells being cast, not most other powers or item based powers) and put it where I want it. Understandably though it is a tad bit of a difficult thing to do in a way that wouldn't be every single time the enemy casts a spell.


    Any help on figuring out these effects would be appreciated.
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  • #2
    Re: Questions of Powers

    first question would be what version of M&M you are looking to rebuild these powers into.
    Assuming 3e, your last option should be able to be run as deflect with both the reflect (which allows you to make an incoming attack into an outgoing one) and redirect (Which allows you to control the target) extras making it cost 3/rank. As far as I know, there is no reason that you can't deflect your allies attacks just as easily as those of your enemies.
    Last edited by kanly; 10-09-2014, 07:31 AM.
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    • #3
      Re: Questions of Powers

      Snatch: An attack and a teleport linked is all this takes, just make sure you have the weight capacity (default is 50 lbs), but cheap to raise that limit on the power. Random would either be a limit or Uncontrolled on the power.


      Twincast: Not hard to do, but it will be expensive as heck to build. Reaction Variable (limited: once per turn, limited: only to a power immediately used in character's area, limited: magic spells only,). The various limits pay off the cost of Reaction, but it would still be 7PP/rank. You might want to throw Sense dependent on it to indicate that you can only duplicate spells that you can sense instead of any around you. This would lower the cost come, but make Subtle effects much harder to copy.


      Stitch in Time: Duplication is the easiest way to handle that one. It was a 2E power, but 3E built it around Summon in the Power Profiles.


      Redirect: Very straight forward in M&M. Reflection (reflect, redirect) 3PP/rank Why did you think that Deflect would only protect your allies. You can use it to deflect an attack at any target in range. That could be an ally, an enemy, a park bench, it doesn't matter.
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      • #4
        Re: Questions of Powers

        Originally posted by digitalangel View Post
        Snatch: An attack and a teleport linked is all this takes, just make sure you have the weight capacity (default is 50 lbs), but cheap to raise that limit on the power. Random would either be a limit or Uncontrolled on the power.
        If you go by RAW, you can't Link a Teleport effect to a Teleport Attack effect, as they do not share the same range (personal vs. close/range). Some GMs allow something like this because it makes sense conceptually, but a different GM might require that you create a separate Teleport effect with the Reaction (in response to Teleport Attack) extra.

        Redirect: Very straight forward in M&M. Reflection (reflect, redirect) 3PP/rank Why did you think that Deflect would only protect your allies. You can use it to deflect an attack at any target in range. That could be an ally, an enemy, a park bench, it doesn't matter.
        To add to this point, it's worth noting that Deflect always requires the Defend action and thus cannot take less than a Standard action. If you want to be able to use this Redirect power without taking the Defend action, a GM might allow it using a HP (analogous to an Instant Counter).
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        • #5
          Re: Questions of Powers

          Originally posted by rwknoll View Post
          If you go by RAW, you can't Link a Teleport effect to a Teleport Attack effect, as they do not share the same range (personal vs. close/range). Some GMs allow something like this because it makes sense conceptually, but a different GM might require that you create a separate Teleport effect with the Reaction (in response to Teleport Attack) extra.
          It depends on how you look at it. As you said GM always has final call.

          I don't see it as a teleport with the attack extra, although I guess you could look at it that way. I saw it as a low rank Damage effect (the punch), linked to a regular (personal) Teleport taking the target allong as an unwilling passenger.

          The first Paragraph under Teleport in the 3E book
          You can move instantly from place to place without crossing
          the distance in between. You can teleport yourself and
          up to 50 lbs. (mass rank 0) of additional mass a distance
          rank equal to your effect rank as a move action. Unwilling
          passengers get a Dodge resistance check to avoid being
          taken along.
          The defense roll for the punch and the teleport can be treated as the same roll. So thematically if you connect with the punch, you teleport them. If not, you don't teleport them with you. The real issue would be that YOU would teleport on the linked power whether you hit them or missed, which makes missing a pain.
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          • #6
            Re: Questions of Powers

            Originally posted by kanly View Post
            first question would be what version of M&M you are looking to rebuild these powers into.
            Assuming 3e, your last option should be able to be run as deflect with both the reflect (which allows you to make an incoming attack into an outgoing one) and redirect (Which allows you to control the target) extras making it cost 3/rank. As far as I know, there is no reason that you can't deflect your allies attacks just as easily as those of your enemies.
            3rd yes.
            You can actively defend for characters other than yourself, deflecting or diverting attacks against them at a distance, and may be able to more effectively defend yourself, depending on your rank.

            I could be reading it wrong, but thats the reason I don't think deflect affects attacks directed at you. Though.. reading further I see where It could also defend you.. ><

            What about things that are beneficial? Is there a way to make it so deflect could bounce those around too?
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            • #7
              Re: Questions of Powers

              Originally posted by digitalangel View Post
              It depends on how you look at it. As you said GM always has final call.

              I don't see it as a teleport with the attack extra, although I guess you could look at it that way. I saw it as a low rank Damage effect (the punch), linked to a regular (personal) Teleport taking the target allong as an unwilling passenger.

              The first Paragraph under Teleport in the 3E book


              The defense roll for the punch and the teleport can be treated as the same roll. So thematically if you connect with the punch, you teleport them. If not, you don't teleport them with you. The real issue would be that YOU would teleport on the linked power whether you hit them or missed, which makes missing a pain.

              Aye, in my goal, I want to make it so I can't teleport unless the person comes with me.
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              • #8
                Re: Questions of Powers

                Originally posted by Triskavanski View Post
                3rd yes.

                I could be reading it wrong, but thats the reason I don't think deflect affects attacks directed at you. Though.. reading further I see where It could also defend you.. ><

                What about things that are beneficial? Is there a way to make it so deflect could bounce those around too?
                You can always defend for yourself. The writeup of the power in 2E made it a lot more clear that your could use Deflect to defend yourself OR another. The 3E wording is a little screwy on that. I think they worded it that way because in 2E you got lots of question sof I'm using Deflect to defend myself is it in place of or on top of my normal defense numbers. The official answer by the way was use the better of the 2.

                Most GMs I know still say in 3E that it can be used to defend yourself. Being used to both editions, I hadn't even noticed the specific wording on that being that screwy in 3E until you pointed it out.

                Originally posted by Triskavanski View Post
                Aye, in my goal, I want to make it so I can't teleport unless the person comes with me.
                Don't link it to a Damage effect then. If you are just wanting to grab someon and teleport both of you, then you can do that with normal teleport under the rules for an unwilling passenger. Teleport is a move action, so in one round you can make a grab check to grab hold of your opponent, and then use teleport for your move action if you grab hold of them successfully. If you have already grabbed them successfully, then most GMS would probably already say that failing teh defend against the grab covers the Dodge for Teleport.

                That way you can still hit and teleport both in 1 round. Linking them and figuring out exactly how to make it work would have left you with your move action left for the round, where this way does not, but that isn't usually a huge deal. If you need to run up to an opponent grab them and then teleport away with them all in 1 round, you can still do that with extra effort.

                You could even have 2 teleport powers on the character (1 as an alternate effort of the other probably). One that is controlled, but just you and not carrying much weight (the default 50 lbs covers this), and an AE that has teh uncontrolled flaw you wanted for Snatch and puts those points into being able to carry a couple hundred pounds (this should cover almost any human sized opponent you want to use Snatch on).
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                • #9
                  Re: Questions of Powers

                  ...and you could add the fast grab advantage so that you could actually strike then for damage, then get the free grab check, and then teleport.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Questions of Powers

                    You can defend for yourself with Deflect.

                    ...and may be able to more effectively defend yourself, depending on your rank.
                    If your Deflect were higher than your Parry/Dodge, you could use Deflect "more effectively" than your active defenses, just understand that it requires a Standard action and is not a Reaction (like Parry/Dodge are).
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                    • #11
                      Re: Questions of Powers

                      Originally posted by Triskavanski View Post
                      3rd yes.
                      You can actively defend for characters other than yourself, deflecting or diverting attacks against them at a distance, and may be able to more effectively defend yourself, depending on your rank.


                      I could be reading it wrong, but thats the reason I don't think deflect affects attacks directed at you. Though.. reading further I see where It could also defend you.. ><

                      What about things that are beneficial? Is there a way to make it so deflect could bounce those around too?
                      I agree with BadPenny. I think this is trying to say that in 3e you also use the better of the two. As for beneficial vs malign, that doesn't really matter for how the power works. Anything that effects others can be considered an attack, you just don't try to defend against beneficial ones normally (ie. I can choose to try and dodge/parry my dentist's drill but seeing how as I have paid him for the privilege of being subjected to drilling I probably won't. Still, there is nothing to stop someone else from shoving a shield between the drill and my mouth.).
                      Last edited by kanly; 10-09-2014, 10:58 AM.
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                      • #12
                        Re: Questions of Powers

                        Unfortunately I found another issue with deflect, being that it only affects attacks that can be dodged/parried and that AoE bypasses it all together. So I think I'll put that on hold until later. Using some of the suggests, I made snatch a teleport that requires a grab. And for now only made the artifact duplicator thing.

                        Puck Mystil - PL 10

                        Strength 0, Stamina 2, Agility 2, Dexterity 4, Fighting 0, Intellect 5, Awareness 4, Presence 2

                        Advantages
                        Artificer, Benefit, Ambidexterity, Eidetic Memory, Evasion, Fast Grab, Grabbing Finesse, Improved Disarm, Improved Grab, Improved Hold, Improved Initiative 3, Taunt, Weapon Bind

                        Skills
                        Acrobatics 9 (+11), Athletics 9 (+9), Close Combat: ???? 6 (+6), Deception 9 (+11), Expertise: Magical 9 (+14), Insight 9 (+13), Investigation 9 (+14), Perception 9 (+13), Persuasion 9 (+11), Sleight of Hand 9 (+13), Stealth 9 (+11)

                        Powers
                        Ridae
                        . . Fur: Feature 1 (natural)
                        . . Leaping: Leaping 2 (Leap 30 feet at 8 miles/hour; Acrobatics Check Required)
                        . . Senses: Senses 2 (Extended: Hearing 1: x10, Ultra-hearing)
                        . . Speed: Speed 2+1 ([Stacking ranks: +1], Speed: 16 miles/hour, 250 feet/round)
                        Snatch: Teleport 3 (magical, 250 feet in a move action, carrying 800 lbs.; Increased Mass 4; Grab-based, Limited: Random location that can support both of us)
                        Temporal Paragon
                        . . Manipulative Area Temporal Shift: Burst Area Teleport Attack 1 (Linked; 60 feet in a move action, carrying 50 lbs., DC 11; Accurate, Affects Objects Only, Burst Area: 30 feet radius sphere, DC 11, Attack: Will, Increased Range 2: perception; Limited: Things I can only physical move)
                        . . Temporal Shift: Teleport 1 (Linked; magical, time, 60 feet in a move action, carrying 50 lbs.; Accurate; Limited: Places I can physical Reach)
                        Temporal Quickness (Advantages: Improved Initiative 3)
                        . . Ageless: Immunity 1 (Linked; Aging)
                        . . Quickness: Quickness 1 (Linked; Perform routine tasks in -1 time ranks)
                        . . Temporal Regeneration: Regeneration 2 (Linked; magical, time, Every 5 rounds)
                        . . Temporal Speed: Speed 1 (Linked; Speed: 4 miles/hour, 60 feet/round; Stacks with: Speed: Speed 2+1)
                        Time Senses: Senses 2 (magical, Awareness: Temporal Anomalies, Time Sense; Feature: Chronal Memory:, Feature: Chronal Bulwark:, Feature: Temporal Inertia)
                        Transreliquant (Removable)
                        . . Mimic Device: Variable 6 (morphic, technological; Limited: Single Object at a time, Sense-dependent: Have to see object)

                        Offense
                        Initiative +14
                        Grab, +0 (DC Spec 14)
                        Manipulative Area Temporal Shift: Burst Area Teleport Attack 1 (DC Will 11)
                        Throw, +4 (DC 15)
                        Unarmed, +0 (DC 15)

                        Complications
                        Motivation: Thrills: Puck Mystil is a rogue before he's really a mage. As such he's typically getting a tad over his head and often needs to fix things his thrill seeking caused problems. He also gets bored often.
                        Reputation - Trickster: He's a bit of a trickster, and his repulation of such often preceeds him. Much to his dismay sometimes, other times he's exaperated when people haven't heard of him.

                        Languages
                        Native Language

                        Defense
                        Dodge 2, Parry 0, Fortitude 2, Toughness 2, Will 4

                        Power Points
                        Abilities 38 + Powers 56 + Advantages 11 + Skills 32 (96 ranks) + Defenses 0 = 137


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                        • #13
                          Re: Questions of Powers

                          Originally posted by Triskavanski View Post
                          Unfortunately I found another issue with deflect, being that it only affects attacks that can be dodged/parried and that AoE bypasses it all together. So I think I'll put that on hold until later.
                          Well yeah, AOEs can't be deflected. If you want to be able to just seize control of a spell's target no matter what (within range of teh casting wizard at least), there is another option that might sound odd but i think will work.

                          Reaction Mind Control. Reaction is always expensive to begin with. In 2E Mind Control was it's own power, in 3E you would build it as an Affliction ( ???, compelled, controlled). Lots of first degree conditions work for a Mind Control type power, or you could take limited degree of (nothing, nothing, controlled). That would mean only working on a 3rd degree failure to get controlled, when honestly compelled is probably enough to retarget teh spell as long as they are not doing it in such a way to endanger themselves (retargetting an offensive spell off in left field, but not targetting themselves for example).

                          If you want to be able to sieze control of the target for any of an opponent's spells though a mind control style effect my suggestion would be this:

                          Reaction (spell being cast within range) Perception Ranged (magical senses) Affliction (impaired [all checks to do with the spell], compelled, controlled), limit (can only control target(s) of the spell being cast), Selective, Distracting, Instant Recovery.

                          The total cost would be 4PP/rank and you would lose a lot of your defense when you were redirecting spells (or you could drop the distracting and come in at 5PP/rank.)

                          To put this at PL caps you would be spending A LOT of your total PPs for a build on this one power though. Fortunately you could use it as the main power for a maigc array of almost any other spell your character had and have a lot of room to play, but this is an expensive power. It also requires you to have at least a couple points in Senses to cover the magical awareness that the Peception Range is tied to. I'd probably put a move activation on the power as well to help lower the cost by an extra point or two.

                          If you are willing to raise the cost an extra PP/rank you could drop the Instant Recovery, and then once you got control of a mage's magic (especailly at controlled instead of just compelled), you could control their spells for the entire encounter without them getting to save again instead of them getting a save for each spell cast.

                          Will makes the most sense for the resistance with the power, but you are targeting mages and they usually have a high Will stat. You might want to make it a Fort save instead for that reason mechanically, but Will is what really makes sense. 2E had an extra (although it was an extra +2/rank) for no save against a power, but 3E killed that and many GMs would never allow it anyway.
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                          • #14
                            Re: Questions of Powers

                            Well, that is actually a pretty good idea there I think. Maybe I could edit up Puck with that power, after dropping the transforming artifact.
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                            • #15
                              Re: Questions of Powers

                              Originally posted by digitalangel View Post
                              If you want to be able to sieze control of the target for any of an opponent's spells though a mind control style effect my suggestion would be this:

                              Reaction (spell being cast within range) Perception Ranged (magical senses) Affliction (impaired [all checks to do with the spell], compelled, controlled), limit (can only control target(s) of the spell being cast), Selective, Distracting, Instant Recovery.

                              The total cost would be 4PP/rank and you would lose a lot of your defense when you were redirecting spells (or you could drop the distracting and come in at 5PP/rank.)
                              This is a brilliant idea, although I can see a few way to streamline it.

                              - Perception Range doesn't require a defined sense (ie you can hit anything you can see/hear/smell/magically perceive as long as the sense is Accurate) and by default is a single target, so you don't need Selective, either. You may be thinking of Perception Area, which does require a defined sense, but it requires that the target has the sense. A bright flash or sonic scream can work on a large area, but not against targets who can't see or hear. So I assume you mean PRange and therefore don't need Selective.
                              - If you're keeping this to what is essentially an Instant effect, you don't really need 3rd-tier Controlled, which is geared to long-term effect, so you could limit it to Impaired/Compelled with Instant Recovery.
                              - Yeah, Reaction is expensive. Do you know what works exactly like Reaction for 1p? Triggered. Yeah, it's only once til you reset it, but ask yourself, do you want this as an interesting combat option or something you would use 5-6 times in a row? If it's somewhere in the middle, buy a couple ranks; I can almost guarantee you will never need more than 5. (Besides, as an MtG spell, you couldn't have it more than 4 times anyway. )
                              - know what works exactly like Reaction for no points? The Ready Action. It would require you to know (or at least suspect) that your opponent is about to cast a spell, so you would Ready the spell to redirect it, not unlike saving a little mana to fire off an instant to interrupt your opponent.

                              Originally posted by digitalangel View Post
                              To put this at PL caps you would be spending A LOT of your total PPs for a build on this one power though. Fortunately you could use it as the main power for a maigc array of almost any other spell your character had and have a lot of room to play, but this is an expensive power. It also requires you to have at least a couple points in Senses to cover the magical awareness that the Peception Range is tied to. I'd probably put a move activation on the power as well to help lower the cost by an extra point or two.
                              It could work in an array, as long as that slot is active. You can only change array slots once per turn as a free action, so you could move, do a Magic Blast, and switch slots to prepare the Redirect spell for your opponent's turn, all in one round. However, you'd have to either not change your array to keep it active on your next turn, or switch out of it in the next round and not be able to use it again for another round. This is the problem of using anything defensive (ie anything that acts off your turn) in an array. And again, PRange doesn't require a defined sense.

                              Originally posted by digitalangel View Post
                              If you are willing to raise the cost an extra PP/rank you could drop the Instant Recovery, and then once you got control of a mage's magic (especailly at controlled instead of just compelled), you could control their spells for the entire encounter without them getting to save again instead of them getting a save for each spell cast.
                              This would be a slightly different power, but still pretty interesting. If you're going to go long term, why not ditch Reaction and just make it a Subtle attack for 1 or 2 points? Then the controlled mage can only hit what you want him to hit. Heck, make it Insidious and he won't even realize his spells are missing!

                              Originally posted by digitalangel View Post
                              Will makes the most sense for the resistance with the power, but you are targeting mages and they usually have a high Will stat. You might want to make it a Fort save instead for that reason mechanically, but Will is what really makes sense. 2E had an extra (although it was an extra +2/rank) for no save against a power, but 3E killed that and many GMs would never allow it anyway.
                              Will makes the most sense when limited to the 2 option of Fort or Will, but you could always go for an Alternate Resistance and make it another appropriate trait. How about vs Expertise:Magic, so more skilled mages are harder to control? Or better yet, vs the rank of the spell being cast, so more powerful magics are harder to redirect? You could do this at your end as well and have a Check Required to cast the Redirect, using Expertise:Magic or maybe Deception, saving you a few points.

                              Personally, I still like the idea of using Trigger, just 1 rank, but with the reset condition that you need to do an Assessment check on the target mage using Expertise:Magic or Deception vs his Expertise:Magic or Deception and get up to 3 degrees of success (maybe less if out of combat). It's pretty houserule-y, but I think it could work well with the concept without being too unbalanced.
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