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  • Impervious protection pointless after Lv30?

    Well, im just planning ahead for the future and currently my Hero has Impervious Protection.

    Now i did some math. With an Impervious Protection Lv30 you can ignore Damage 15, however - considering your defense is 1d20+30 vs 15+15 damage, you cant get any damage anyways, unless you roll a 1.

    Am i just dumb or is Impervious Protection really getting useless at higher ranks?

  • #2
    Re: Impervious protection pointless after Lv30?

    Impervious would still be immune to Damage 15(multiattack) whereas without Impervious, you could be looking at DC32 or 35.

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    • #3
      Re: Impervious protection pointless after Lv30?

      The way it is I consider it more of a show piece that a real power even at level 10 Impervious means your ignoring 5> so the most your stopping from happening is a -1 condition if you manage to roll 5> on your check. Its nice for the "I can't be hurt by normal gunfire" effect, but mechanically give very little benefit unless your tend to be swarmed by minions in your games a lot.

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      • #4
        Re: Impervious protection pointless after Lv30?

        Nope. The math makes it pointless. It's a fairly well-known phenomenon that arithmetical adjustments scale with PL but anything involving multiplicative adjustments (half ranks, etc) does not. Given the standard is PL 10, I'd probably veer toward all of the "half" items instead working as "-5". So Impervious protects you from all effects Rank-5 and lower. Half immunity subtracts 5, etc.
        [url=http://roninarmy.com/threads/996]My Builds[/url]

        [b]Current games:[/b]
        [url=http://www.echoesofthemultiverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=839]The J.V. Team (GM)[/URL]

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        • #5
          Re: Impervious protection pointless after Lv30?

          Originally posted by FuzzyBoots View Post
          Nope. The math makes it pointless. It's a fairly well-known phenomenon that arithmetical adjustments scale with PL but anything involving multiplicative adjustments (half ranks, etc) does not. Given the standard is PL 10, I'd probably veer toward all of the "half" items instead working as "-5". So Impervious protects you from all effects Rank-5 and lower. Half immunity subtracts 5, etc.
          I use this house rule in 2E (where it doesn't apply to Impervious but applies to things like area effects and half-effect immunities), and it works very well.

          Edit: Let me also say though that unless you're running a really uber-cosmic game, I see no reason to ever consider what happens at PL 30 (or really, anything above PL 20). Personally I've never had a need to go higher than PL 15-16, even for the greatest of master villains. PL 20 is really ridiculously powerful.
          Last edited by Nite_Owl; 10-08-2014, 12:00 PM.

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          • #6
            Re: Impervious protection pointless after Lv30?

            what kind of character would be lv30?! Even characters like Thanos or Superman are somewhere close, but still below 20 in most the sources (DC book, threads in this forum..)

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            • #7
              Re: Impervious protection pointless after Lv30?

              If you are playing at PL30 everything you do is going to be pretty much pointless no matter what you do.
              “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”

              -Doctor Who

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              • #8
                Re: Impervious protection pointless after Lv30?

                When I drew up my M&M3e build for Mogo, the living planet from Green Lantern, he came in at PL40. Mostly due to the 80 ranks of Growth necessary to reach planetary-sizes giving him a Toughness 80. (He's got –40 Dodge/Parry)

                He's actually still on the small side for a planetary body, Growth 80 has him roughly on par with the Moon. (Earth itself would be Growth 88.)

                I would never, ever run a PL40 campaign. But it might be fun to play...

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                • #9
                  Re: Impervious protection pointless after Lv30?

                  My calculations are based on trade-offs, so basically the impervious rank is at the PL, since the Protections is twice the PL, thus setting active defenses like parry and dodge to 0. Otherwise PL, Protection and enemy damage would be twice as high as the impervious, thus impervious would be even more useless. Actually i made them again and you actually need dont need Impervious after Protection Lv26.

                  Basically: If hit for 13 (the highest amount of damage the impervious def would soak), you would have receive 15+13 damage = 28 damage. You withstand with 26 Toughness from your Protection + 1d20. However, since 1 is a glitch (If i recall correct) you need at least a 2. Thus its 28 vs 28.

                  At impervious 12 (Protection 24) you would need a 3 from your 1d20 without impervious (15+12=27 vs 27)
                  At impervious 11 (Protection 22) you would need a 4 from your 1d20 without impervious (15+11=26 vs 26)
                  At impervious 10 (Protection 20) you would need a 5 from your 1d20 without impervious (15+10=25 vs 25)
                  [...]
                  At impervious 5 (Protection 10) you would need a 10 from your 1d20 without impervious (15+5=20 vs 20)
                  [...]
                  At impervious 1 (Protection 2) you would need a 14 from your 1d20 without impervious (15+1=16 vs 16)

                  Thus, its rather counterintuitive. Its basically more powerful, the weaker your Protection is, reaching its effectiveness peak at the lowest level.

                  One could ofcourse argue that 1. From the roleplay perspective a plate-armor like protection always should be impervious, no matter what the numbers say and 2. That things that affect you over time (i.e. a laser beam that goes on for minutes, continuous punching or a drill in your face) would wear the armor down, though i think this one is covered with a flaw.

                  Basically the only reason to keep impervious at higher levels is for the roleplay. Though its a pretty expensive reason, considering it doubles the cost of the power.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Impervious protection pointless after Lv30?

                    I'm still of the opinion that the change in Impervious was one of the few missteps in going from 2e yo 3e; it fixed a problem that for most people wasn't there, at the price of making the Extra nearly pointless at the best of times.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Impervious protection pointless after Lv30?

                      Originally posted by Darkdreamer View Post
                      I'm still of the opinion that the change in Impervious was one of the few missteps in going from 2e yo 3e; it fixed a problem that for most people wasn't there, at the price of making the Extra nearly pointless at the best of times.
                      I have the feeling that they created the "fix" for Impervious early in the writing of 3e, but never revisited it later when they started pricing other Extras at +2PP/rank.

                      If you use the 2e rules for how Impervious and Penetrating interact, but double the cost of Impervious, you get a nice balance between 2e and 3e.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Impervious protection pointless after Lv30?

                        I actually sort of like 3e Penetrating. It's a throwback to 1e and it makes full ranks more relevant. In 2e, a few ranks gave you enough Penetrating to break through anything you found, especially with Power Attack adding on. 1e's take on it did not work because the lack of alternate powers made it prohibitively expensive to have an attack that can break through.

                        Really, all I think 3e needed to change for Impervious was to cap it to PL, regardless of Toughness shift.
                        [url=http://roninarmy.com/threads/996]My Builds[/url]

                        [b]Current games:[/b]
                        [url=http://www.echoesofthemultiverse.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=839]The J.V. Team (GM)[/URL]

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                        • #13
                          Re: Impervious protection pointless after Lv30?

                          If ive read it correctly, the penetrating is even more pointless than impervious.
                          Its cost are basically 1/r, but cant be negated with a -1/r ability like tiring or distracting.

                          An i mean cmon. If you have to penetrate impervious, it means that the enemy has at LEAST twice the toughness you damage-rank is.
                          I.e. you can deal 10, enemy has impervious 10. Means his Toughness is 20. So yippie, you attack him with you penetrating and he rolls 25 vs 1d20+20.

                          Basically its the same question as before. Impervious and penetrating are simply pointless. Ive read it up in the 2nd edition. There it was useful, in the 3rd its not. Not in the slightest. If we could at least pay like with penetrating 1 flat per rank of impervious - yes, that would be useful and make sense. The way it is now though the calculations proves that it is simply a waste of PP.

                          Its a pity, because this way you cant have really armored characters, who can sit under a rain of bullets not giving a fuck, because they have adamantium armor. The only way there is, is the immunity to toughness damage, which at 80PP just doesnt make any sense to buy, unless you are creating some super-uber-villain.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Impervious protection pointless after Lv30?

                            Originally posted by Kasseopea View Post
                            If ive read it correctly, the penetrating is even more pointless than impervious.
                            Its cost are basically 1/r, but cant be negated with a -1/r ability like tiring or distracting.

                            An i mean cmon. If you have to penetrate impervious, it means that the enemy has at LEAST twice the toughness you damage-rank is.
                            I.e. you can deal 10, enemy has impervious 10. Means his Toughness is 20. So yippie, you attack him with you penetrating and he rolls 25 vs 1d20+20.
                            What PL are you playing at that you're regularly encountering characters with a 20 Toughness?

                            I'd agree that Impervious and Penetrating are really Effects that end up being more thematic than effective, but that's fine. If M&M was just about building unstoppable munchkin juggernauts, a huge chunk of the core rules could be thrown right out the window. And if that's how people want to play, personally I don't see the appeal, but I'm never going to tell someone that they're having fun wrong.

                            Impervious is there for characters who aren't just likely to shrug off most conventional attacks, but aren't really even going to notice regular weaponry. Consider a PL 10 Paragon. If he or she is Toughness shifted, and has 15 ranks of Impervious Toughness, they don't even need to pick up the dice for any attack that has 8 or fewer ranks of Damage. Looking at the Gadgets & Gear chapter, that means our hypothetical Paragon won't even blink at anything less powerful than rocket launcher. Or a Defense shifted Crimefighter with a bullet-proof -- i.e. 6 ranks of Impervious -- costume will be able to ignore most small arms fire.

                            Then, when the GM busts out the special mineral that the Paragon is susceptible to, or the armour piercing rounds, and suddenly the Player has to roll for their character against attacks they'd normally laugh at, that can suddenly make the fight interesting, even if the characters aren't in any real danger.

                            It's all thematic.

                            Also, look at Impervious and Penetrating from the GM's perspective. If ranks of Impervious protected against Damage at a 1:1 ratio, that puts the onus on the GM of a player who's character has high ranks of Impervious to constantly figure out work arounds or come-up with reasons why the villains have Penetrating on all their attacks so that combat encounters can still be fun and interesting. And if the GM is having to build his or her combat encounters to work around the high ranks of Impervious, than that just as effectively renders the power points spent on Impervious wasted, because they're not actually doing anything for the character.

                            It's almost like a variation on the url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma]Prisoner's Dilemma[/url].

                            By limiting the effectiveness of Impervious against higher ranks of Damage, the game enables the player to create a character that laughs at bullets, but doesn't force the GM into a situation where they're needing to essentially undermine the player's build almost every encounter.
                            Punching For Justice

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                            • #15
                              Re: Impervious protection pointless after Lv30?

                              Also, look at Impervious and Penetrating from the GM's perspective. If ranks of Impervious protected against Damage at a 1:1 ratio, that puts the onus on the GM of a player who's character has high ranks of Impervious to constantly figure out work arounds or come-up with reasons why the villains have Penetrating on all their attacks so that combat encounters can still be fun and interesting. And if the GM is having to build his or her combat encounters to work around the high ranks of Impervious, than that just as effectively renders the power points spent on Impervious wasted, because they're not actually doing anything for the character.
                              To be fair, this argument can be applied to most powers or trade offs. What about a PL 10 PC with 15 defense and reflex? What about the insubstantial 2 PC? In any game the GM needs to strike that balance between having foes who can threaten a PC yet still allowing the PC to be the star at times due to their build. Mnm is very easy to make a PC that is too powerful in one aspect or another.

                              Of course, that is not to say I disagree with your central premise that impervious is a thematic thing much like every other aspect of the MnM system. Anyone who takes 15 impervious at 1:1 ratio at PL 10, assuming pp caps is probably lacking in another area or disregarding RP in favor of making an optimized PC. I am not saying this is always the case, but it often seems to be in my experience. This is especially true if someone has 20 toughness and is PL10. Any GM worth their salt won't be using toughness attacks for any combat that matters after maybe an initial attack. My take on 3E impervious is that, like others have said, it is more of a concept type power for a PC to boast he can't be hurt by normal people or something of that sort.
                              [url=http://roninarmy.com/threads/46-mrdents-menagerie-of-characters]My characters past and present[/url]

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