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New Vindicators Academy of Europe (OOC - Full)

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  • Re: New Vindicators Academy of Europe (OOC - Full)

    Well, lessee...Progression 20? Insane. Not as insane when he doens't have horde, but still.

    Although I think you're misreading the Heroic extra. You've been treating the swords like minions, but if they were Heroic, well they'd be even stronger. So that's a good thing.

    Like I pointed out when BK fought Ulrich, the fact that his swords don't drop when Ulrich does is kind of a problem. For one thing, its a typical summoner flaw-which serves to balance the fact that one character gets essentially extra attacks against a solo foe. Besides, what's the in-game justification for the Summon being Continuous anyway?

    Immunity critical hits I've never really gotten for constructs. Unless they're just that tough or something. Although I have to say I kind of see it with swords-what is a sword's weakpoint? I mean, swords can be broken of course, but you know....

    I don't think they need Immunity (Interaction effects) because they don't have Charisma. How are you gonna bluff a floating sword, exactly?

    Bottom line-this character could challenge the entire team with his swords.

    They have one weak spot-Area attacks. But that's about it.
    [I]Any sound can shake the air. My voice shakes the heart![/I]

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    • Re: New Vindicators Academy of Europe (OOC - Full)

      PL10 against a single one of our heroes is going to be a tough fight. If I remember correctly, forum member Elric did a study way back when that said a PL10 character should be expected to beat a PL8 character something north of 90% of the time. Make it multiple PL10 foes and that gets ugly really fast. Of course, making the foes minions mitigates some of that and Lex dropping 2 in the surprise round certainly helped, but he's still looking at an uphill climb. Lex needs a 14 to hit a sword and the swords only need an 11 to hit Lex. The swords will save on a 15 but Lex needs to roll a 20 to avoid damage from the swords.

      Offensively, minions are no different from standard foes except that they can't score criticals, so I think I would agree that lowering the PL of the swords would be the easiest path to reducing the difficulty. If you want to keep them offensively strong, you could reduce only their defenses with the reasoning that inanimate objects don't have much self-preservation instinct.

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      • Re: New Vindicators Academy of Europe (OOC - Full)

        Well, anything I'm going to say is biased because I'm facing off against them.

        That being said: Oh my giddy aunt they have heroic!

        That means that each of these swords are full villain status, not minions. So the two I hit should be injured and not dead.

        The scary part for the summoning concept is that for each thing they summon they get an extra hit. That's a pretty serious advantage in M&M.
        When that thing is a lower level it's more of an annoyance or a death by papercut approach. They're not a serious threat by themselves, but they will wear you down making your next fight a serious threat.
        When they're the same PL or higher than the PCs they go from a minor annoyance to a serious threat all by themselves.


        No arguments here, Lex dove into a bad situation and he's going to (and probably deserves to) choke on it, but he also jumped into a fight with four PL10 villains. Normally four PL 8 heroes should be able to successfully fight a PL 10, I think. Or was it PL 12?
        Either way those are pretty bad odds.

        In my mind the only time a summoner should be able to summon something at the same PL as himself is when the summon is his primary form of combat, and even then I'd cap it at one.
        In the case of a villain it gets a little more hazy. A villain who summons a bunch of powerful summons could be an interesting team threat villain for the school to face.
        But with twenty PL10 heroic minions he should easily be able to take out the school by himself. (Barring the intangibles and the immortals)

        Oddly enough his stats vs his minons are actually reversed from what I was expecting. I figured he'd be a more significant threat while his swords were numerous but less threatening.

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        • Re: New Vindicators Academy of Europe (OOC - Full)

          Well, as I look at Cleave and his swords, I see some real issues where game balance is concerned. First, as a PL10, Cleave is going to be a problem for any character by himself (or should be since his limits are going to be potentially greater). Granted, a single PC is usually a match for an NPC 1 or 2 levels higher, depending on how many HP they have available at any given time, but, the swords are 10th level characters themselves with a single focus...combat.

          They are accurate (+10 with their only attack), hard to hit (20 def.) and every bit as durable as a PC (meaning Takedown is unlikely going to be efficacious). Worst of all at Progression 20, Cleave could (assuming he ever had time) summon 2.5 million swords. Keep in mind that for the purposes of Summon the Progression feat is a doubling effect, meaning that by the time you hit 20, 1 becomes 2.5 million.

          And Cleave's swords are also difficult to stop by non-combat means. They can't be stopped with Corrosion or Disintigration any more quickly than they can by Lex's blasts since the weaken effect is meaningless against them (neither Will nor Fortitude effects are useful against them). So, the only way to dependably bring them down is an Area Effect, Regenerating, Transparent, Snare.

          An area grapple effect, like Kas' gravity control could pin them to the ground for a long as the effect could be sustained, but that doesn't stop new swords in the parade of 2.5 million from being summoned.

          Essentially, the only way to beat Cleave is to dodge the swords and find Cleave and defeat him. This will leave the swords unable to do anything except the last thing Cleave ordered them to (they have no Int score, they must be directed).

          Yeah...Cleave is brutal.

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          • Re: New Vindicators Academy of Europe (OOC - Full)

            I'm not sure why I missed this before, but shouldn't Ogre hitting Felsic have provoked saves against Felisc's Damage & Drain Aura?

            I mean, Felsic has zero combat ability to speak of, but being made of lava, she doens't have to even hit you as long as you hit her.
            [I]Any sound can shake the air. My voice shakes the heart![/I]

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            • Re: New Vindicators Academy of Europe (OOC - Full)

              Originally posted by Horsenhero View Post
              And Cleave's swords are also difficult to stop by non-combat means. They can't be stopped with Corrosion or Disintigration any more quickly than they can by Lex's blasts since the weaken effect is meaningless against them (neither Will nor Fortitude effects are useful against them).
              incorrect on this point. Any drain toughness with Affects objects (as corrosion and disintegrate have) with affect them either automatically or with a suggested toughness save as per Steve.

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              • Re: New Vindicators Academy of Europe (OOC - Full)

                Originally posted by Arthur Eld View Post
                Well, lessee...Progression 20? Insane. Not as insane when he doens't have horde, but still.
                Aye. It just allows him to have an army if he can get there.

                Although I think you're misreading the Heroic extra. You've been treating the swords like minions, but if they were Heroic, well they'd be even stronger. So that's a good thing.
                That's a remnant from my first draft, I believe: I initially was going to have the swords as heroic, but thought that was too crazy, and dialed it back. I can drop that.

                Like I pointed out when BK fought Ulrich, the fact that his swords don't drop when Ulrich does is kind of a problem. For one thing, its a typical summoner flaw-which serves to balance the fact that one character gets essentially extra attacks against a solo foe. Besides, what's the in-game justification for the Summon being Continuous anyway?
                His power is first and foremost, that he creates a sword. It's not an energy weapon or something that he has to focus to maintain: he literally is fabricating matter from nothingness (which, by itself, is kind of amazing), but only to make a sword. Then, once he swings it, he "wakes it up". It's now a semi-sentient being, capable of floating around, and swinging at stuff.

                When I was conceiving Cleave, I imagined him going into war-torn hell holes, and making a few as guards to watch his back while he slept--things like that. In my head, this guy was insane, and these swords were his best friends--they're the only ones he trusts.

                Immunity critical hits I've never really gotten for constructs. Unless they're just that tough or something. Although I have to say I kind of see it with swords-what is a sword's weakpoint? I mean, swords can be broken of course, but you know....
                My thinking was always that critical hits did something below the surface--breaking a rib, or rupturing a spleen with a punch! Things without organs and the like... Well, all you can really do is damage them.

                I don't think they need Immunity (Interaction effects) because they don't have Charisma. How are you gonna bluff a floating sword, exactly?
                So, I spent 5 points without needing to? I wasn't sure on this one and just tacked it on because... well, yeah: how ARE you going to bluff a floating sword?

                Bottom line-this character could challenge the entire team with his swords.

                They have one weak spot-Area attacks. But that's about it.
                I'm noticing other typos: defense should be +9 (I apparently never added in his four ranks of Dodge Focus). Granted, BK needs to roll a 14 to hit him, but once he does, it's an impossible save for Cleave. Likewise, Martin's bag of tricks laughs in the face of his +6 Fortitude, and Kas should have no trouble with the +13 Grapple (okay, I looked at Kas' sheet and... Kas needs an 11 to hit Cleave--50/50 shot--and our grapples tie, at which point it comes down to "who does Invisible Castle love more?"). I was of the opinion that in a straight up fight (one where Cleave begins the battle with no minions already summoned), he could be finished in a single round.

                Essentially, I don't think Cleave could take the team, but the swords... the swords could. It just depends on their numbers at the start of battle.

                Originally posted by Shock View Post
                Lex needs a 14 to hit a sword and the swords only need an 11 to hit Lex. The swords will save on a 15 but Lex needs to roll a 20 to avoid damage from the swords.
                Aye. I was doing the math on Lex vs. the swords, and not liking that he cannot escape taking injuries now.

                Offensively, minions are no different from standard foes except that they can't score criticals, ...
                And that they go down in a punch. Sure, the swords have a high Toughness save, but I was basing it on the Toughness of steel. I'm thinking that I may lower their damage output and their defense. They'll just be accurate and durable.

                Originally posted by Arkrite View Post
                Well, anything I'm going to say is biased because I'm facing off against them.

                That being said: Oh my giddy aunt they have heroic!

                That means that each of these swords are full villain status, not minions. So the two I hit should be injured and not dead.
                No, I originally planned for them to be heroic, and then decided against it later. Ignore that bit. They're gone.

                The scary part for the summoning concept is that for each thing they summon they get an extra hit. That's a pretty serious advantage in M&M.
                When that thing is a lower level it's more of an annoyance or a death by papercut approach. They're not a serious threat by themselves, but they will wear you down making your next fight a serious threat.
                When they're the same PL or higher than the PCs they go from a minor annoyance to a serious threat all by themselves.
                This is a unique situation. Ideally, I would not be starting off an encounter with Cleave with a bunch of minions already summoned. Granted, yes, a guy with this power would always be walking around with one or two as guards, but... the way I want to use him is he begins fresh and has to summon the first one in the first round. At that point, the number of extra attacks he gets increases with every round he doesn't go down. After a couple of encounters, the PCs know of him and know how he works: it sort of becomes a race against the clock.

                That's in concept. Practice is turning out to be a lot worse.

                In the case of a villain it gets a little more hazy. A villain who summons a bunch of powerful summons could be an interesting team threat villain for the school to face.
                I have a pool of points left over on his build (more so now, that I realize I didn't remove the heroic extra) and might be tempted to toss on some stuff to make him his own villain. I always envisioned him as part of a team--not having the stuff to go it on his own--but I'm beginning to rethink that.

                But with twenty PL10 heroic minions he should easily be able to take out the school by himself. (Barring the intangibles and the immortals)
                Eh. I still say Kas, Martin, or Violet power stunting an area snare could end this pretty quick. One-on-one, Cleave looks like a nightmare. Against the team? Cleave doesn't stand a chance.

                Oddly enough his stats vs his minons are actually reversed from what I was expecting. I figured he'd be a more significant threat while his swords were numerous but less threatening.
                I wanted him to just be a really good swordsman who has the power to create more dancing swords.

                Originally posted by Horsenhero View Post
                Well, as I look at Cleave and his swords, I see some real issues where game balance is concerned. First, as a PL10, Cleave is going to be a problem for any character by himself (or should be since his limits are going to be potentially greater). Granted, a single PC is usually a match for an NPC 1 or 2 levels higher, depending on how many HP they have available at any given time, but, the swords are 10th level characters themselves with a single focus...combat.
                Exactly. Typically, a single PC can handle an NPC 1 or 2 levels higher. Like I said, Kas has a very even shot against Cleave: 50% chance to hit, and then it comes down to opposing die rolls. His Fortitude and Will are lack luster. If one of the PCs hits him with a DC 18 effect evoking a save from either of those, his odds are less than 50%.

                In a pure brawl--trading punches with him--he'll have the advantage. Go for his weakness? He's down in no time.

                Worst of all at Progression 20, Cleave could (assuming he ever had time) summon 2.5 million swords. Keep in mind that for the purposes of Summon the Progression feat is a doubling effect, meaning that by the time you hit 20, 1 becomes 2.5 million.
                In game statistics, yes, but not here. I limited his summon. He can't animate a sword he hasn't swung, and he gets one attack per round. The swords will not double--at the most, he only increases his minions once per round. The progression feat is there to give him the potential. He should never hit his cap, but if he manages to get ten swords on the field? He can keep going without worry.

                Originally posted by Arthur Eld View Post
                I'm not sure why I missed this before, but shouldn't Ogre hitting Felsic have provoked saves against Felisc's Damage & Drain Aura?

                I mean, Felsic has zero combat ability to speak of, but being made of lava, she doens't have to even hit you as long as you hit her.
                D'oh! You are correct, sir! I completely forgot about it. Lemme roll that and edit up my last post. Thanks, Eld!

                Side note: I dislike the expiration on the message thing the new forums does. I started this reply hours ago, and when I go to post... Nope! Go back, copy everything, paste it into a new reply! Ugh...
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                • Re: New Vindicators Academy of Europe (OOC - Full)

                  I made some edits, and would like to get some thoughts on it.

                  CLEAVE
                  (Power Level 10)


                  STR 18 (+4), DEX 16 (+3), CON 16 (+3), INT 12 (+1), WIS 14 (+2), CHA 10

                  SKILLS: Climb 4, Intimidate 10, Knowledge (streetwise) 5, Knowledge (tactics) 4 (+5), Languages 2 (English, French, German [base]), Notice 4 (+5), Profession (soldier) 4, Stealth 4 (+7), Vehicles 3 (+6)

                  FEATS: Accurate Attack, Attack Focus 4 (melee), Attack Specialization 2 (sword), Defensive Attack, Defensive Roll 4, Dodge Focus 4, Equipment 4, Evasion 2, Fearless, Improved Block 2, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative 1, Power Attack, Startle

                  POWERS: Strike 3 (sword; Power Feats: Improved Critical 1, Mighty), Summon Sword 3 (Power Feats: Mental Link, Progression 20; Extras: Duration [Continuous, +1], Fanatical [+1]; Flaws: Limited [must have used strike, -1])

                  Equipment: tactical vest (+4 Toughness); 16 free equipment points

                  COMBAT: Attack +5 (+9 melee, +13 sword), Grapple +13, Damage +4 (+7, sword), Defense +9 (+2 flat-footed), Knockback -5 (-3 flat-footed), Initiative +7

                  SAVES: Toughness +11 (+7 flat-footed), Fortitude +6, Reflex +10, Will +5

                  Abilities 26 + Skills 10 (40 ranks) + Feats 27 + Powers 35 + Combat 20 + Saves 13 = 131 points
                  Again, with Cleave's summon, he can only create one sword at a time--two if I let him surge, I suppose, but... that's unlikely to happen. He can create an army, sure, but still--only one at a time.

                  SWORD
                  (Power Level 7 / Minion Level 3)


                  STR 10, DEX 10, CON N/A, INT N/A, WIS 10, CHA N/A

                  SKILLS: None

                  FEATS: Accurate Attack, Attack Specialization 5 (Strike), Defensive Attack, Improved Block 5, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative 1, Power Attack

                  POWERS: Flight 1 (10 MPH), Immunity 32 (critical hits, Fortitude effects), Protection 10, Shrinking 4 (Power Feats: Innate; Extras: Duration [Continuous, +1], Normal Abilities [+3]; Flaws: Permanent [-1]), Strike 3 (Power Feats: Improved Critical 1)

                  COMBAT: Attack +1 (+11, strike), Grapple -3, Damage +0 (+3 strike), Defense +4 (+1 flat-footed), Initiative +4

                  SAVES: Toughness +10, Fortitude N/A, Reflex +0, Will +0

                  DRAWBACKS: Disability (mute; very common; moderate; 4 points), Disability (no hands; very common; moderate; 4 points)

                  Abilities -30 + Skills 0 + Feats 15 + Powers 55 + Combat 6 + Saves 0 - Drawbacks 8 = 38 points
                  And the swords. I noticed I hadn't applied any of the modifiers from their size on the last posting, so that's been corrected. Most importantly, I pulled their PL down. As a PL 7, they run a +11 attack/+3 damage and a +3 defense/+10 toughness. Thoughts?
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                  • Re: New Vindicators Academy of Europe (OOC - Full)

                    The swords themselves are a lot better now.

                    I still have two problems-the Progression and the Continuous. Especially combined together.

                    Put it this way-it takes Cleave two rounds to summon one sword. That's twelve seconds. If he spends a half an hour in one day (it wouldn't even have to be all at once, say five minutes here, five minutes there, and so on,) he has a hundred and fifty swords. He goes to sleep, he wakes up, the swords are still there, and then he does the same thing the next day. 300 swords.

                    Maybe he's really busy one day, and he only gets ten minutes-that's till fifty swords a day. If he really has a clear schedule, he devotes 90 minutes-say while watching a favorite movie that he doesn't really pay attention to. That's 450 swords. He then goes out and has his swords decimate an entire army base. It doesn't matter if a soldier gets a lucky shot and kills Cleave, the swords still kill more people.

                    Limit the Progression to a more reasonable level (Drew Jenkins, chosen of God can summon five angels, Abaddon, one of the Seven Fallen Seraphim, five Demons. Granted they're heroic, but still), and the Continuous doesn't seem so bad.

                    Drop the Continuous, and the Progression isn't so crazy, because the swords go away when Cleave goes to sleep. But both together?

                    Mechanically speaking, if there's nothing stopping Cleave from doing this, why hasn't he?

                    Martin can transmute matter into gold, he could flood the world's markets and bring down national economies, causing wide-spread panic. He doesn't do this because he has morals, restraint. Cleave has been depicted as basically a cruel sociopath who only trusts his swords. Why wouldn't his hotel room be full of them, keeping him safe at night, ready to go as soon as he wake up?

                    Only one guy in Earth 137 (barring Elemenoh of course who doesn't count since he's God) has higher numbers than Cleave. That's Baron Saturday, an Angel of The Lord who can call forth 25 million corpses-but he still needs those corpses there, he can't just make them himself.

                    Like you said, if Cleave gets ten swords on the field, he's in good shape. That would take him two minutes.

                    It took me longer to write this post.
                    Last edited by Arthur Eld; 6th October 2014, 08:59 PM.
                    [I]Any sound can shake the air. My voice shakes the heart![/I]

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                    • Re: New Vindicators Academy of Europe (OOC - Full)

                      Pretty much what Eld said...but y'know...with fewer words.

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                      • Re: New Vindicators Academy of Europe (OOC - Full)

                        First.

                        Originally posted by Arthur Eld View Post
                        Martin can transmute matter into gold, he could flood the world's markets and bring down national economies, causing wide-spread panic. He doesn't do this because he has morals, restraint.
                        Thank you! I wrote something to that effect in a post.



                        Why Cleave hasn't or doesn't is the same reason why Lacuna didn't spread seeds to *everyone* she could with the trigger of 'next time you blink' and take over the world. It's the same reason power-stealing guy hadn't pulled his trick before now and actually become a superhero. There are a ton of bad people in the Oubliette that don't work to their full, scary capacity - because story-wise the power of plot prevents it. We don't know why people haven't done things they haven't done. Chalk it up to insanity, maybe.

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                        • Re: New Vindicators Academy of Europe (OOC - Full)

                          After this adventure, I'll probably dial back the progression. I'm hesitant to remove the duration extra as 1) it makes sense to me that it would be there and 2) I think he's hamstrung without it.

                          Let's look at the first point. Take Martin, and the gold transmutation example Eld mentioned. It would feel insanely weird if that gold reverted back to lead when Martin went to sleep. In effect, he would be willing it to be gold--not actually manipulating the composition of an item. The descriptor has changed, then: Martin isn't just manipulating elements, but he's actually willing a physical change over something that lasts only so long as he can devote some pittance of his consciousness to that act.

                          The concept is that this is a man who creates a sword from nothing. Much like a Nephilim, his ability is to conjure a soul-weapon. Unlike a Nephilim, he creates a physical weapon--one he could pass to someone else if he wanted, or sell, or melt down, or whatever. That ability on its own is... eh. He'd be a swordsman who could never truly be disarmed, true, but on its own, it lacks punch. With the guy having the ability to wake the sword up--to turn it into a minion? Now he's got a gimmick. I might alter up his limit a little--make it where he has to wake the swords up by satiating their thirst for bloodlust or something, so that he can't just sit in a room somewhere, make a sword, swing a sword, lather, rinse, repeat. Sure, it's not so hard for him to show up at a grocery store and raise a small army by cutting down every shopper he runs into, but there are still logistic problems...

                          In that scenario, if a guy shows up in a store and begins to summon swords from nothingness and immediately uses them to slash through the guy bagging groceries, some people are going to freeze, some people might try to take the guy down on their own, but most people are going to get the hell out of there, diminishing the opportunities he has to keep cutting people up. On top of that, he's going to draw attention: police, military... In this scenario, the police are useless, but there are other circumstances (their numbers are thin due to multiple attacks, only to be further divided considering how many entrances a hospital has, plus the swords have hostages) making them so here.

                          Also, in the scenario were Cleave sits in a room and makes a few hundred swords... he still has to transport them. Sure, he could grab a semi and have them all lay down nice and neat and organized atop each other, but there's still going to be problems with deployment. Granted, he'd overcome that fairly quickly, but still... it's not so simple.

                          I digress: if the swords vanished on his defeat, it feels like betraying the concept. Sure, there's the option of linking the Summon with a smidge of Create Object and having the swords fall lifeless around him upon his defeat, but that gets to my second point: it makes him a pushover. I still insist that in a straight up fight, him versus any of the PCs, he'll drop easily. In a group scenario, if you know that the swords go when he goes, every encounter will begin the same: "Ignore the swords and focus on stopping him!"

                          Sure, BK needs to roll a 14 to hit him, but with the Will damage, it takes Cleave a 16 just to avoid getting stunned or worse. Factor in that once BK rolls the 14, there is nothing Cleave can roll to avoid damage. I'm not complaining there. First and foremost, it's Cleave's job to lose. Second, if I really wanted to avoid that, I could spend those extra points on bumping his Will save, but again... no one should be a perfect build. Villains aren't supposed to win. If they did, it'd be a really boring story.

                          As for the progression... right now--this session--he does need a few hundred swords. Off the top of my head, I can think of eight entrances to the hospital in my hometown. It's a rinky-dink hospital, too. Eight entrances, not counting service entrances, emergency exits, and their ilk. Now, were I to head across the river and go to OSF in Peoria? OSF is a pretty much a small city at this point, and they just keep getting bigger. I imagine Vienna's hospital has to be about that size, if not bigger. If Cleave were going to position just a single sword at each possible entrance? I don't think it's possible with him maxing out at 50. If it has an adjoining parking garage, then you have to have swords posted at every level--at the entrance to the garage. Ambulance bays, main entrance, side entrances, employee entrances for office workers, service entrances, receiving bays for delivery...

                          At the same time, it's also not possible for Cleave to actually cover every single entrance without attracting attention. People have escaped, but it's not about that: it's about effectively shutting down the whole hospital. If the doctors flee, good. If not, he's out to find them and kill them.

                          Originally posted by flynnarrel View Post
                          Why Cleave hasn't or doesn't is the same reason why Lacuna didn't spread seeds to *everyone* she could with the trigger of 'next time you blink' and take over the world. It's the same reason power-stealing guy hadn't pulled his trick before now and actually become a superhero. There are a ton of bad people in the Oubliette that don't work to their full, scary capacity - because story-wise the power of plot prevents it.
                          Exactly. Take Otso's scene right now: Niloticus is possessed by Lacuna, who could easily plant seeds in everyone down in the basement, set with the trigger of "attacking the crocodile man". The trouble is, I don't like using Lacuna's powers as a weapon, but as a plot device. It allowed me to explain why Erudite was acting so stupidly (if it came down to it, someone of Tabitha/Jay's abilities going to the dark side would result in a worse scenario--you wouldn't even know about Laputa's existence until they'd conquered the world), permitted me to have NPCs relay exposition without having villains removed from the fight (if Lacuna showed up to talk to taunt people, there's the risk of the group taking her down, but if a possessed priest shows up and does it, the villains risk nothing), and lets me hand wave fights like the UN guards attacking Pict, Jack, and the rest.

                          Durendal/Voleur, however... His will make sense. I'm super eager to bite into that story.

                          We don't know why people haven't done things they haven't done. Chalk it up to insanity, maybe.
                          I like that excuse. The sort of people who would have no trouble with cutting down doctors because they were paid to do it, aren't exactly operating with the greatest reasoning capacity as it is. Add in the wrinkle that Cleave is a soldier of fortune, and wouldn't do anything unless the money was in it, and it cuts back on what sort of scenarios he'll become involved with.

                          Of course, a rational person would be content with retiring after they earned a couple million dollars, so there has to be other motivations. Take the Vitesse brothers: they could easily retire from crime and live content lives without the threat of ever being taken down by spandex-garbed do-gooders, but they're actually after something in particular, which we'll be getting into as time goes on. In Cleave's case... he really enjoys what he does. Again: insanity. It's the new "a wizard did it."
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                          • Re: New Vindicators Academy of Europe (OOC - Full)

                            I'd just throw something like "Swords disappear after X days" which would make it hard for him to have a constant supply of killer swords while still letting him have a collections follow him around for a few days up to a week or two.

                            Or just have it draining, or headache inducing to have it at high numbers.
                            "Yes, I could have a million swords, but I'd be in incredible pain.... No, this is more than enough to kill you all."

                            Just my crazy thought. Doesn't change the stats and still explains why he doesn't wipe out small countries on his own.

                            And even with all that said I still don't understand how Lacuna hasn't taken over the world. Especially considering she isn't constrained to a body now.
                            Of course I'm also just waiting for the inevitable "No, I'm the real Lacuna" battle between three of the activated seeds now that there isn't a real body to lay claim to that exact title.

                            In a group scenario, if you know that the swords go when he goes, every encounter will begin the same: "Ignore the swords and focus on stopping him!"
                            Crap! He's on to us!

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                            • Re: New Vindicators Academy of Europe (OOC - Full)

                              You could probably alleviate the questions about why Cleave doesn't have an army of swords capable of taking over a small country by dropping the limit from a couple million to a couple hundred. 200 swords is still plenty for him to be able to do just about anything the story would require without leaving open the possibility of an actual army of swords. Or maybe there should be a time limit to how long they stay animated. If you make the duration Independent with Total Fade and Slow Fade, you could stretch the time out to a couple of days, which again, should be plenty to support whatever the story needs.

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                              • Re: New Vindicators Academy of Europe (OOC - Full)

                                Regardless of anything else, the fact that Cleave's swords don't disappear isn't that big of a deal, because they have a non-existant intelligence score, meaning the best they can do once he's knocked out is take a seies of preprogrammed actions. They can't make choices or judgements or do something they haven't been previously prepared for. So while they could still fight and kill after Cleave is knocked out, they have to do so in a very simple, predictable manner that PC's really should be able to find a way around. To have them do otherwise is pretty much just giving the finger to the rules and the design process as a whole.

                                The best plan with Cleave is always to avoid his swords and hunt for him first. Once he's taken out, his swords are a series of automaton traps to be dealt with however possible.

                                The same goes for Martin's ability to Transmute. IF flynn didn't pay the extra +1pp/rank for the duration (he did, I'm just using this as a hypothetical example), then ruling it as a sort of default continuous "just because" is giving the middle finger to the players who worked really hard to make certain their characters powers work as intended and suffered the limitations of the design process when it couldn't be done, but play those characters exactly as their final iteration allows mechanically. Changing the mechanics "just because" is not fair to other players since it awards a defacto PP bonus to the character who benefits from that change.
                                Last edited by Horsenhero; 7th October 2014, 09:29 AM.

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