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  • Need help evaluating a PC

    Hello everyone, I'm new here and I'm gonna be GMing a M&M 3e game this weekend for the first time. One of my players has made a character that I'm feeling kinda iffy about, but I don't have the system knowledge to articulate my problems with it, or suggest to my player what he should do differently.

    So I'd be very grateful if the system veterans here could tell me what do they think of this build and what, if anything, is wrong with it

    The Wire
    PL10

    Abilities
    Strength 0, Stamina 0, Agility 1, Dexterity 2, Fighting 0, Intellect 5, Awareness 1, Presence 2

    Powers
    Wire Control:
    Wire Sense: Remote Sensing 3 [Simultaneous; Feedback, Medium (Wire); Subtle], Wire Armor: Protection 18 [Sustained, Activation], Wire Flight: Movement 2 [Wall Crawling, Safe Fall], Wire Grab: Move Object 15 [Damaging; Throwing Mastery 1, Precise, Accurate 2], Wire Strike: Damage 4 [Triggered, Accurate 6]
    (88 points)

    Advantages
    Chokehold, Fast Grab, Grabbing Finesse, Improved Disarm, Improved Grab, Improved Hold, Languages 1(Native French, English), Precise Attack 4, Seize Initiative, Skill Mastery [Gambling], Throwing Mastery 1

    Skills
    Athletics (+0), Deception 6 (+8), Expertise: Gambling 8 (+13), Insight 6 (+7), Intimidation (+2), Perception (+1), Persuasion (+2), Stealth (+1)

    Offense
    Initiative +1
    Wire Grab +4, Damage 15
    Wire Throwing +4, Damage 16
    Wire Strike +14, Damage 4

    Defense
    Dodge 2, Parry 0
    Toughness 18 (Def Roll 0), Fortitude 2, Will 15

    Power Points
    Abilities 22 + Powers 88 + Advantages 13 + Skills 10 + Defenses 17 = Total 150

    Thank you in advance

  • #2
    Re: Need help evaluating a PC

    It is recommended you cap trade offs at a maximum of +/-5, and many games restrict it more than that.

    A +18 Toughness is ridiculous for a PL10 game. Ignore nonsense arguments like "but that's his gimmick."

    You can also point out that he will never hit with his big attacks and rarely hurt anyone with his wire attack.

    And he will regularly be one-shotted by Afflictions, which are often FORT based.
    [HR][/HR][URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/60-Kenseido-s-Menagerie"]Kenseido's Menagerie of Characters[/URL]

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    • #3
      Re: Need help evaluating a PC

      Originally posted by TheSander View Post
      Hello everyone, I'm new here and I'm gonna be GMing a M&M 3e game this weekend for the first time. One of my players has made a character that I'm feeling kinda iffy about, but I don't have the system knowledge to articulate my problems with it, or suggest to my player what he should do differently.

      So I'd be very grateful if the system veterans here could tell me what do they think of this build and what, if anything, is wrong with it

      The Wire
      PL10

      Abilities
      Strength 0, Stamina 0, Agility 1, Dexterity 2, Fighting 0, Intellect 5, Awareness 1, Presence 2

      Powers
      Wire Control:
      Wire Sense: Remote Sensing 3 [Simultaneous; Feedback, Medium (Wire); Subtle], Wire Armor: Protection 18 [Sustained, Activation], Wire Flight: Movement 2 [Wall Crawling, Safe Fall], Wire Grab: Move Object 15 [Damaging; Throwing Mastery 1, Precise, Accurate 2], Wire Strike: Damage 4 [Triggered, Accurate 6]
      (88 points)

      Advantages
      Chokehold, Fast Grab, Grabbing Finesse, Improved Disarm, Improved Grab, Improved Hold, Languages 1(Native French, English), Precise Attack 4, Seize Initiative, Skill Mastery [Gambling], Throwing Mastery 1

      Skills
      Athletics (+0), Deception 6 (+8), Expertise: Gambling 8 (+13), Insight 6 (+7), Intimidation (+2), Perception (+1), Persuasion (+2), Stealth (+1)

      Offense
      Initiative +1
      Wire Grab +4, Damage 15
      Wire Throwing +4, Damage 16
      Wire Strike +14, Damage 4

      Defense
      Dodge 2, Parry 0
      Toughness 18 (Def Roll 0), Fortitude 2, Will 15

      Power Points
      Abilities 22 + Powers 88 + Advantages 13 + Skills 10 + Defenses 17 = Total 150

      Thank you in advance
      Ok.
      First, this build is by no means a gamebreaker. Actually quite the opposite, as it's TERRIBLY lopsided - several glaring weaknesses just begging to be exploited, a sitting duck, and unable to hit the broadside of a barn.
      Yet there are also 2 calculation mistakes in the build:
      - The actual accuracy of both Wire Grab and Wire Throw is 6 (2 ranks of Accuracy [= +4] + DEX 2 = 6), breaking PL.
      - Likewise, the accuracy of Wire Strike is only 12 (6 ranks of Accuracy [= +12] + FGT 0 = 12)

      other issues:
      - What are the actual senses working with Wire Sense? (I guess it's Hearing & Sight)
      - A total Perception score of just +1??? Perception is perhaps the most important skill in the game, therefore I'd recommend a minimum score of +5 for any hero.
      - Grabbing Finesse & Skill Mastery (gambling) are both rather pointless.
      - Extremely high Toughness (18) combined with extremely low active defenses: Technically "legal", but most GMs follow the corebook's advice of limiting tradeoffs to +5/-5 (especially for toughness- & damage-shifted builds)
      - Fortitude defense 2 is just pathetic. Particularly Close or Ranged Fortitude-based attacks are DEVASTATING against this build (as they target Parry or Dodge, and enable Power Attacks and/or Critical Hits).
      Last edited by Bothrops; 03-27-2019, 11:43 AM.
      https://roninarmy.com/forum/atomic-think-tank/roll-call/7149-bothrops-pit#post7149

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      • #4
        Re: Need help evaluating a PC

        Thank you both for your advice, I'm chatting with the player right now and seeing what we can do, I'll post an updated build once we work out what we want to change.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Need help evaluating a PC

          Ok so me and the player are talking, and one thing is that the so called wire strike was in his supposed to be a kind of capture trap: he sneaks his wires into a room and when some mook passes close enough the trap triggers they grab him.

          Now I'm thinking that something like that would work better as some sort of Ranged triggered Affliction, maybe resisted by dodge, Hindered and Impaired, Defenseless and Immobile (Limited Degree and Extra Condition). Workable?

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          • #6
            Re: Need help evaluating a PC

            Yeah that is a basic Snare, resisted by Dodge, Escaped by Strength Affliction.

            It does still require a "to hit" roll, unless you increase the Range to Perception. Of course, then you are PL capped and cant use Combat Advantages.
            [HR][/HR][URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/60-Kenseido-s-Menagerie"]Kenseido's Menagerie of Characters[/URL]

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            • #7
              Re: Need help evaluating a PC

              Originally posted by kenseido View Post
              Of course, then you are PL capped and cant use Combat Advantages.
              Technically, Combat Advantages are not capped by PL. But Perception ranged attacks do not benefit from Combat Advantages since there is no attack roll.

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              • #8
                Re: Need help evaluating a PC

                Thank you all for the advice, here's the Wire updated build:

                Abilities
                Strength 0, Stamina 0, Agility 1, Dexterity 2, Fighting 0, Intellect 5, Awareness 1, Presence 2

                Powers
                Wire Control:
                Wire Sense: Remote Sensing 4 [Touch and Sight; Simultaneous; Feedback, Medium (Wire); Subtle], Wire Armor: Protection 15 [Sustained, Activation], Wire Flight: Movement 3 [Wall Crawling, Safe Fall, Swinging], ,
                (23 points)
                Wires:
                Extra Limbs 5 [Sustained, Projection; Precise], Elongation 4 [Limited to Wires], Enhanced Strength 10 [Limited to Wire projections], Enhanced Advantages 3 [Fast Grab, Throwing Mastery 2]
                (26 points)
                Wire Snare:
                Affliction 10 [Ranged, Cumulative, Resisted by Dodge, Broken by Strenght: Hindered, and Impaired, Defenseless and Immobile; Limited Degree; Accurate 4]
                (24 points)

                Equipment


                Advantages
                Chokehold, Improved Grab, Fast Grab, Improved Disarm, Improved Hold, Languages 1 [Native French, English], Seize Initiative, Throwing Mastery 2

                Skills
                Athletics (+0), Close Combat: Wires 9 (+9), Deception 6 (+8), Expertise: Gambling 8 (+13), Insight 6 (+7), Intimidation (+2), Perception 7 (+8), Persuasion (+2), Ranged Combat: Throwing 6 (+8), Sleight of Hand 2 (+4), Stealth 2 (+3)

                Offense
                Initiative +1
                Wire Strike +9, Damage 10, +1 to grab checks
                Wire Throwing +8, Damage 12
                Wire Snare +10, Damage 10, DC 20, Resisted by Dogdge and Broken by Strenght

                Defense
                Dodge 5, Parry 5
                Toughness 15 (Def Roll 0), Fortitude 6, Will 13

                Power Points
                Abilities 22 + Powers 73 + Advantages 5 + Skills 23 + Defenses 27 = Total 150

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Need help evaluating a PC

                  His Fortitude is pretty low. Looks like he is buying Toughness directly which isn't allowed in RAW, you either need to buy Defensive Roll or Protection. Having a Toughness of 15 is much stronger than steel (TOU 10) so what is the justification for that.
                  [HR][/HR][URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/60-Kenseido-s-Menagerie"]Kenseido's Menagerie of Characters[/URL]

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                  • #10
                    Re: Need help evaluating a PC

                    Originally posted by jmucchiello View Post
                    Technically, Combat Advantages are not capped by PL. But Perception ranged attacks do not benefit from Combat Advantages since there is no attack roll.
                    I guess this was kenseido's point...


                    Originally posted by kenseido
                    His Fortitude is pretty low. Looks like he is buying Toughness directly which isn't allowed in RAW, you either need to buy Defensive Roll or Protection. Having a Toughness of 15 is much stronger than steel (TOU 10) so what is the justification for that.
                    - Yes, Fortitude 6 is pretty low, but still within reasonable boundaries for PL 10. A Hero can't be strong in all aspects.
                    - Nope, he isn't buying Toughness directly: Wire Armor (Protection 15). Rank 15 may be borderline, but IMHO still acceptable.
                    https://roninarmy.com/forum/atomic-think-tank/roll-call/7149-bothrops-pit#post7149

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                    • #11
                      Re: Need help evaluating a PC

                      Originally posted by TheSander View Post
                      Thank you all for the advice, here's the Wire updated build:

                      Abilities
                      Strength 0, Stamina 0, Agility 1, Dexterity 2, Fighting 0, Intellect 5, Awareness 1, Presence 2

                      Powers
                      Wire Control:
                      Wire Sense: Remote Sensing 4 [Touch and Sight; Simultaneous; Feedback, Medium (Wire); Subtle], Wire Armor: Protection 15 [Sustained, Activation], Wire Flight: Movement 3 [Wall Crawling, Safe Fall, Swinging], ,
                      (23 points)
                      Wires:
                      Extra Limbs 5 [Sustained, Projection; Precise], Elongation 4 [Limited to Wires], Enhanced Strength 10 [Limited to Wire projections], Enhanced Advantages 3 [Fast Grab, Throwing Mastery 2]
                      (26 points)
                      Wire Snare:
                      Affliction 10 [Ranged, Cumulative, Resisted by Dodge, Broken by Strenght: Hindered, and Impaired, Defenseless and Immobile; Limited Degree; Accurate 4]
                      (24 points)

                      Equipment


                      Advantages
                      Chokehold, Improved Grab, Fast Grab, Improved Disarm, Improved Hold, Languages 1 [Native French, English], Seize Initiative, Throwing Mastery 2

                      Skills
                      Athletics (+0), Close Combat: Wires 9 (+9), Deception 6 (+8), Expertise: Gambling 8 (+13), Insight 6 (+7), Intimidation (+2), Perception 7 (+8), Persuasion (+2), Ranged Combat: Throwing 6 (+8), Sleight of Hand 2 (+4), Stealth 2 (+3)

                      Offense
                      Initiative +1
                      Wire Strike +9, Damage 10, +1 to grab checks
                      Wire Throwing +8, Damage 12
                      Wire Snare +10, Damage 10, DC 20, Resisted by Dogdge and Broken by Strenght

                      Defense
                      Dodge 5, Parry 5
                      Toughness 15 (Def Roll 0), Fortitude 6, Will 13

                      Power Points
                      Abilities 22 + Powers 73 + Advantages 5 + Skills 23 + Defenses 27 = Total 150
                      MUCH better!
                      Yet the math for "Wire Control" doesn't seem right, as it should cost a total of 29p (Wire Sense 9 + Wire Armor 14 + Wire Flight 6). And "Limited to wire projections" isn't really a valid flaw for his Enhanced Strength, since he can do everything with these - there's no true disadvantage.
                      Another idea: "The Wire" is a VERY powerful grappler (remember that ranks of Extra Limbs are, if dedicated to a single target, added to the grab score as a circumstance bonus) with tremendous reach (Elongation 4 = 120'), and he can also maintain a grab on a target (or even multiple targets) as a free action (Extra Limbs = Improved Grab). My point is that this essentially renders "Wire Snare" obsolete! Therefore, I'd dump it & use those 24p for something else. A few suggestions:
                      - Add a few ranks of Speed to "Wire Flight"! Greatly enhances mobility, especially when combined with Swinging & Wall-Crawling.
                      - Buy more ranks in Sleight-of-Hand plus matching Skill Mastery - this should make a supreme pickpocket (especially when combined with his powers). A few extra ranks in Stealth wouldn't hurt either.
                      - INT 5 is a bit expensive for being good at gambling alone. I guess your player just wants his hero to be smart, and that's fine. So I'd put those nifty INT ranks to work by buying Jack-of-all-Trades - turning The Wire into a polymath.
                      - Looking at his stats, The Wire seems to be a civilian genius with no combat training (& thus relies on his powers). So why don't give him a scientist background? Just buy some ranks in Expertise (science) & Technology, and the Inventor advantage. This will add an entire new layer to his potential.

                      so long
                      Last edited by Bothrops; 03-28-2019, 07:45 AM.
                      https://roninarmy.com/forum/atomic-think-tank/roll-call/7149-bothrops-pit#post7149

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                      • #12
                        Re: Need help evaluating a PC

                        Hello, here's what should be the version of the PC that sees play tomorrow, hope nothing's wrong with it

                        Abilities
                        Strength 0, Stamina 0, Agility 1, Dexterity 2, Fighting 0, Intellect 4, Awareness 1, Presence 2

                        Powers
                        Wire Control:
                        Wire Sense: Remote Sensing 4 [Touch and Vision; Simultaneous; Feedback, Medium (Wire); Subtle], Wire Armor: Protection 13 [Sustained, Activation], , ,
                        (21 points)
                        Wires:
                        Extra Limbs 2 [Sustained; Precise], Elongation 4 [Limited to Wires], Enhanced Strength 9 [Limited to Wire projections], Enhanced Advantages 3 [Fast Grab, Throwing Mastery 2]
                        (17 points)
                        Wire Flight:
                        Wire Flight: Movement 3 [Wall Crawling, Safe Fall, Swinging], Speed 2 [32m per round, 16km/h]
                        (8 points)
                        Wire Snare:
                        Affliction 8 [Ranged, Cumulative and Extra Condition, Resisted by Dodge, Broken by Strenght: Hindered, and Impaired, Defenseless and Immobile; Limited Degree; Accurate 4]
                        (28 points)

                        Advantages
                        Chokehold, Improved Grab, Fast Grab, Improved Disarm, Improved Hold, Languages 1 [Native French, English], Seize Initiative, Throwing Mastery 2

                        Skills
                        Athletics (+0), Close Combat: Wires 9 (+9), Deception 2 (+4), Expertise: Hacking 6 (+10), Insight 4 (+5), Intimidation (+2), Investigation 3 (+7), Perception 6 (+7), Persuasion (+2), Ranged Combat: Throwing 6 (+8), Stealth (+1), Technology 4 (+8)

                        Offense
                        Initiative +1
                        Wire Strike +9, Damage 8, +2 to grab checks
                        Wire Throwing +8, Damage 12
                        Wire Snare +10, Damage 8, DC 18, Resisted by Dogdge and Broken by Strenght

                        Defense
                        Dodge 7, Parry 7
                        Toughness 13 (Def Roll 0), Fortitude 7, Will 12

                        Power Points
                        Abilities 20 + Powers 74 + Advantages 5 + Skills 20 + Defenses 31 = Total 150

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Need help evaluating a PC

                          Kind of a nitpick, but "Hacking" is not something I think of as having a strong academic or professional character. To actually hack requires the Technology skill. I would think something more like Computers or Mathematics or Data Security.
                          [url]http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/211267/Do-Not-Approach[/url]

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                          • #14
                            Re: Need help evaluating a PC

                            Originally posted by pawsplay View Post
                            Kind of a nitpick, but "Hacking" is not something I think of as having a strong academic or professional character. To actually hack requires the Technology skill. I would think something more like Computers or Mathematics or Data Security.
                            I agree. You might have an expertise in hackers, which could be like streetwise only for the hackers community. Otherwise you are better off putting the points in Technology and buying Skill Mastery and/or Ultimate Technology (Hacking) or Second Chance (Hacking).
                            [HR][/HR][URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/60-Kenseido-s-Menagerie"]Kenseido's Menagerie of Characters[/URL]

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