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  • New 52 laiid to rest

    Was reading this site about the New 52's issues at the end of it run with Rebirth starting things all over again.

    http://screenrant.com/rebirth-new-52...B-B&view=lista

    I had very little chance to see more than a few issues so have little clue what was it all about. The rant article filled a few things in hindsight. Also explain this DC obsession with everything grim and gritty that I thought died with the Iron Age especially in their movies and tv shows. 52 only lasted 5 years and getting replaced again. I swear these reboots are closer and closer together as the decades and now years go by.

    Thank you Green Ronin for DCAdventures. Ageless and iconic and playable without worrying their stats and costumes will change tomorrow.

  • #2
    Re: New 52 laiid to rest

    I think the problem is that, back in the 2000s, Identity Crisis came out and was hugely successful, pushing Wizard Magazine (which was still a thing then) to list DC above Marvel for the first time in years. Like other big hits before it, DC then tried to ape elements of it without understanding what they were doing. Since Identity Crisis dealt with mature, serious issues, DC has spent the last decade or so doubling down on that.

    Meanwhile, Marvel goes, "Please enjoy our comics with a raccoon and a talking tree."

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    • #3
      Re: New 52 laiid to rest

      Also Identity Crisis was way overrated and actually pretty terrible in retrospect, so... not a good foundation.
      Formerly Narsil.

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      • #4
        Re: New 52 laiid to rest

        Originally posted by Scots Dragon View Post
        Also Identity Crisis was way overrated and actually pretty terrible in retrospect, so... not a good foundation.
        And "in retrospect" means "obvious by issue #3". So, yeah.

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        • #5
          Re: New 52 laiid to rest

          Originally posted by Nightbeast View Post
          Thank you Green Ronin for DCAdventures. Ageless and iconic and playable without worrying their stats and costumes will change tomorrow.
          Funny story, maybe you heard it. There were quite a few people complaining that they went with iconic builds and not the Nu52 versions.
          [HR][/HR][URL="http://roninarmy.com/threads/60-Kenseido-s-Menagerie"]Kenseido's Menagerie of Characters[/URL]

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          • #6
            Re: New 52 laiid to rest

            Originally posted by Earth-Two_Kenn View Post
            And "in retrospect" means "obvious by issue #3". So, yeah.
            I didn't read it until way later, so all of my opinions on it can't help but be retrospective.
            Formerly Narsil.

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            • #7
              Re: New 52 laiid to rest

              Originally posted by kenseido View Post
              Funny story, maybe you heard it. There were quite a few people complaining that they went with iconic builds and not the Nu52 versions.
              Because a game released in 2010 is going to have the versions of the characters that didn't exist until 2011. That's a reasonable expectation.

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              • #8
                Re: New 52 laiid to rest

                Originally posted by Scots Dragon View Post
                Also Identity Crisis was way overrated and actually pretty terrible in retrospect, so... not a good foundation.
                Originally posted by Earth-Two_Kenn View Post
                And "in retrospect" means "obvious by issue #3". So, yeah.
                I liked it. The problems really started when it was a cornerstone of many stories going forward, and elements taken from the story were implemented poorly. For instance, Dr. Light becoming a symbol for the villains to rally around. Some, maybe. But I cannot see Captain Cold and the Flash Rogues buying into that. In fact, I can easily imagine a seen where they have a... chat with him.

                "You know, we liked Mrs. Dibny. She was nice. Her husband's nice, too. For a superhero. You? What you did wasn't very nice...."

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                • #9
                  Re: New 52 laiid to rest

                  No, the problems started when they started rewriting their Bronze Age heroes to fit the story.

                  Between the time it was introduced in JLA #78 and it's destruction in the Mars-Earth War, the JLA Satellite was regularly manned. They had someone one Monitor Duty almost constantly. There were a precious few times when the League was ALL out on emergency (e.g. #150), but those were very few and far between. The closest they ever came to leaving a civilian on-board was Snapper Carr (properly speaking an honorary member) in #200. The idea of leaving Sue Dibny on board the Satellite, alone, is insane. The League was far too security concious to consider it an unbreachable fortress. So either someone else was aboard besides Sue and Dr. Light, or... For the portion of the story that was a flashback, it rang false to those of us who were actually there.

                  The fight between the League and Deathstroke ignored a decade of Wally's development (including his newer powers), postulated that Deathstroke can move a sword at hypersonic speeds, purported that Dinah's sonic scream can't penetrate leather; required physics to work one way on page and in a completely opposite way on the next (comic book physics are going to be bad, and different from reality, but they should be consistent in a scene); completely ignored how Hawkman's equipment works; and required Kyle, who spent his career making big giant green constructs and fighting at range, get a lobotomy and make the decision to say "this guy has Aquman level strength and Batman level fighting skill -- I'll fly into melee range."

                  Between Deathstroke the Mary Sue and using the Bronze Age as a urinal cake, the whole thing came across as beautifully drawn fanfic. The editors had an agenda and the story stank of it.

                  And these are just the beginnings of the list of problems.

                  I'm glad you were able to enjoy it, despite its numerous flaws, but it was a highly flawed piece of work, particularly as one they were trying to use as a cornerstone for the then-new era.

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                  • #10
                    Re: New 52 laiid to rest

                    I can understand having problems with inconsistencies. Me? I had given up on DC editorial even trying to maintain that sort of thing years prior, primarily thanks to the Teen Titans comic started by Devin Grayson. ("Wait, before this series started, Damage had already gotten so mad at Arsenal he walked out on the team TWICE. Why the **** is he all chummy with him now?!?") If they can't even manage to remember stuff they did a year or two ago, then expecting them to be true to comics three decades prior requires a Herculean level of faith.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: New 52 laiid to rest

                      Originally posted by Earth-Two_Kenn View Post
                      No, the problems started when they started rewriting their Bronze Age heroes to fit the story.

                      Between the time it was introduced in JLA #78 and it's destruction in the Mars-Earth War, the JLA Satellite was regularly manned. They had someone one Monitor Duty almost constantly. There were a precious few times when the League was ALL out on emergency (e.g. #150), but those were very few and far between. The closest they ever came to leaving a civilian on-board was Snapper Carr (properly speaking an honorary member) in #200. The idea of leaving Sue Dibny on board the Satellite, alone, is insane. The League was far too security concious to consider it an unbreachable fortress. So either someone else was aboard besides Sue and Dr. Light, or... For the portion of the story that was a flashback, it rang false to those of us who were actually there.

                      The fight between the League and Deathstroke ignored a decade of Wally's development (including his newer powers), postulated that Deathstroke can move a sword at hypersonic speeds, purported that Dinah's sonic scream can't penetrate leather; required physics to work one way on page and in a completely opposite way on the next (comic book physics are going to be bad, and different from reality, but they should be consistent in a scene); completely ignored how Hawkman's equipment works; and required Kyle, who spent his career making big giant green constructs and fighting at range, get a lobotomy and make the decision to say "this guy has Aquman level strength and Batman level fighting skill -- I'll fly into melee range."

                      Between Deathstroke the Mary Sue and using the Bronze Age as a urinal cake, the whole thing came across as beautifully drawn fanfic. The editors had an agenda and the story stank of it.

                      And these are just the beginnings of the list of problems.

                      I'm glad you were able to enjoy it, despite its numerous flaws, but it was a highly flawed piece of work, particularly as one they were trying to use as a cornerstone for the then-new era.
                      Much agreement. More recently the Mary Sue scene was done again in Cry For Justice, when Prometheus took down over twenty former Justice Leaguers in a couple of pages.

                      The GM in me briefly thought, how can I simulate this in a game? And my only answer was: cheat like there's no tomorrow. Not very satisfying.

                      Andrew. <:-{}
                      - Andrew <:-{}

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: New 52 laiid to rest

                        Identity Crisis was just...bad. Brad Meltzer is an wonderfully gifted novelist, but his skills didn't translate to comics. The book failed at the most basic level, as a murder mystery, because there was NO FREAKING WAY for readers to deduce the villain of the story-it depended on all sorts of absurd and internally inconsistent events, along with a face-heel turn by a character (Jean Loring) whom most readers had no knowledge of-and for those who did, her behavior made no sense (in past stories, SHE left Ray Palmer, not vice versa).

                        As Earth Two Kenn stated, multiple characters were forced to carry the proverbial Idiot Ball (Kyle Rayner, but also the Atom-Ray Palmer just LEFT A SPARE SHRINKING BELT LYING AROUND?, the Leaguers attacking Deathstroke one at a time, up close, and in a frontal assault); powers and physics got re-written in how they worked from issue to issue, with some heroes, like Wally, just forgetting what they could do. Now, some of this is inevitable in comics-physics are going to be stretched or ignored, and heroes/villains who are way too versatile (DC has more of a problem with this) will get downplayed in team books, of necessity. But I-C was egregious in these ways.

                        I don't care about relatively minor details (OK, Hawkman wouldn't fall out of the air because his wing-harness was severed, I can live with that-it's too much to ask for writers to remember everything about characters' histories and continuities), but outright stupid things break suspension of disbelief. Jean Loring, who ended the marriage to Ray, suddenly having a breakdown and deciding to murder an old friend and then arrange for several others' deaths, because of an insane belief this would get her back together with her ex-husband. Jean somehow acquiring a flamethrower (!?), no evidence at all being left despite the fact she had to return to normal size to destroy Sue Dibney's body, the sacrificing of one of comics sweetest relationships for shock value (as Alex Ross said: "Yeah, killing off Elongated Man's wife is so brave; do that to Lois Lane and I'll be impressed by your editorial courage"); several personality re-writes; the cavalier death of Firestorm, a character who had lasted over thirty years at that point...

                        I honestly think if anyone BUT Meltzer had written this, it would have been recognized at the time as a trainwreck.

                        Ah, well. It was gone and now mostly forgotten (though we STILL don't have Ralph and Sue back the way they should be), and things are getting better.

                        All my best.

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                        • #13
                          Re: New 52 laiid to rest

                          I don't think it is a coincidence that DC is going through the same path Marvel chose on the 90's: violence, guns, attitude, shoulder pads, armor. While I don't see it as dumbing down their material material, I do think it represents a shift towards a younger audience, somesort of desperate attempt to face financial crisis. Exactly like what Marvel had to endure to survive, and I hope they'll come back to a more "4-colors" approach slowly as their situation improve. I mean, at least this Rebirth event points towards the recovery of some aspects of old DC.

                          What I trully find unexpected is Marvel sudden colapse on quality recently. After their mega-event of Incursions and Reign of Doom the quality just dropped violently. To me it seems like their current stories gravitate around the movies (like making Deadpool an Avenger, I think, just because of the positive impact his movie had on the big screen, and worst: with an story arc that was just horrible, a giant pile of garbage, coming from anywhere and going nowhere) or at least is in part affected by the movies, like the way they're handling the X-men and the Fantastic Four, or better saying, their abscense. I really did not see that coming. I mean, it really takes some effort to pick a concept like the Inhumans, which I always liked, and turn it into a generic temporary placeholder for another more popular team.
                          Last edited by Cannibal; 08-08-2016, 03:31 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Re: New 52 laiid to rest

                            DC is fine with me if only for their animated series. Somehow they can get that right but then I'm more retro. Can't wait for the animated Batman 1966 movie.

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                            • #15
                              Re: New 52 laiid to rest

                              Another article explaining what's new... or old in the new new DC.

                              http://www.goliath.com/comics/12-thi...ntent=variants

                              Are we getting old DC or another different DC?

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