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A Guide to SIFRP's Benefits and Then Some (WIP)

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  • A Guide to SIFRP's Benefits and Then Some (WIP)

    A Guide to SIFRP's Benefits and Then Some (WIP)

    First off, I'd like to acknowledge omegonthesane's "The Revised Minmaxer's Guide to SIFRP" as I was initially motivated to make this after having gone through the thread myself.

    As my group uses the Game of Thrones Edition, I will be accounting for the post-errata effects of certain Benefits as well where applicable. This doesn't include expansions like Night's Watch (yet). Also, there will inevitably be similarities between his opinions and mine, but there is no intention of plagiarism here. This guide, while it will point out what I feel are optimal choices, is made with the intent of having a broader view on the Benefits presented by the game. Personally, I enjoy having a good character concept and so I support optimizing within its limits.


    Benefits and You
    Benefits are essentially special qualities/traits/feats that your character can invest Destiny Points (DP) in to gain certain...benefits...and also to give them more nuance. Story-wise, these also represent particular aspects of your character that are quite prominent. A thief could resort to killing, but the core choices would be benefits like Furtive and Face in the Crowd and Martial ones can afford to come later. Mechanics-wise, they can let you do some impressive stuff with particular abilities and let you get more mileage out of your specialty dice.

    Ranks and Specialty Dice
    The number cruncher in us surely like the feeling of having high ranks in our favored stats because we get more test dice, let us nail those higher Difficulty tests and add a good chunk to our derived stats like HP, Combat Defense, and especially our passive test results. If they're so awesome, why can't we just blow our XP on them? It costs 30xp to increase an ability's rank past 3 and not all campaigns are high-power campaigns with generous XP and/or Destiny Point rewards. IMO, you'll be perfectly fine capping it at Rank 5 (6 or 7 for special cases).

    So what else can we do to spend precious XP wisely? Get specialty dice which only cost 10xp each. Sure they're not test dice and don't directly add to our test result when we roll, but they let you get more out of your current dice pool and could save your life from a botched roll!


    I rolled 4 test dice and got 4, 3, 1, 1 (9). Those two 1s are heartbreaking.

    If I had gotten even just two specialty dice, however, I 'd have rolled 6 dice and got 4, 3, 1, 1, 6, 3. Keep the top 4 dice and I get a result of 4, 3, 6 ,3 (16) instead. Much better.

    Specialty dice also add a +1 to your passive test result when they are deemed applicable. Finally, a number of Benefits can turn them into flat bonuses, rerolls, or even test dice!

    That said, onward to the list of Benefits!


    I'll be going over Martial (divided into Combat and Warfare), Social, Ability, Fate and Heritage benefits in that order.
    I'm leaving out Drawbacks because that will be up to your character's concept, your and your GM's prerogative, and how your group's storyline unfolds. Minmaxing Drawbacks basically boils down to taking Flaw or drawbacks that target "dump stats".

    They will be rated on a scale of 1/5 and include a rundown on why. I'm sure we can all agree on how this works.

    Martial Benefits

    'All men must die'

    Accurate - 0/5
    A very poor choice outside of fluff and/or a VERY specialized marksman. Investing a precious DP for a situational +1D loses out to Expertise or simply getting another rank in Marksmanship for 30xp with 20 left for specialty dice.

    Acrobatic Defense - 3/5
    Mechanically, not a bad choice but definitely popular for fencers and other swift, roguish types. Converting 10xp to +2 Combat Defense is pretty good though it's at the expense of a lesser action. It also requires you to lay off bulky armor (Characters who can take this quality do that, anyway) though RAW exempts bulky shields. Just add another 2B to Acrobatics past the prerequisite Agility Rank 4 + Acrobatics 2B and you get a whopping +8 to Combat Defense every round.

    This is also on top of the benefits of being able to roll well on Acrobatics tests, but you'll have to work out with your GM how testing Acrobatics will work since the wording is iffy. The GM ruling can possibly raise this up to 4/5.

    Anointed - 2/5
    I find this to be better as a reward by your GM (of course free Benefits are always nice) since it's so closely tied to a story event. The description itself says that one need not take this to be an anointed knight so I can't recommend investing a DP on this during character creation unless the event is truly significant to your character concept somehow. It functions well as a clutch ability which could save your bacon if timed right.

    Armor Mastery > Improved Armor Mastery
    AM - 5/5
    A strong pick for any character expecting to get into fights often. +1 to AR and -1 Bulk really lets you get the most out of any piece of armor. Agile characters can wear ring mail without interfering with their Benefits that prohibit armors with Bulk 1 or higher, and meatier characters can mitigate speed reduction caused by Bulk on top of the +1 AR.

    IAM - 1/5 pre-errata, 2/5 post-errata
    Pre-errata, a bad choice as +1 AR alone is no longer worth a DP. Post-errata adds a -1 reduction to its penalty on CD which is nice, but still not worth the DP. Not a terribly poor choice for characters that like heavier armors.

    Axe Fighter I-III
    I - 5/5
    Bonus damage that ignores AR is great. It can force an opponent to take Injuries or Wounds earlier than they should, especially if you invest in more dice later, as the additional damage can easily shred their HP and call for a second Wound or set of Injuries. Their situation is made worse if you roll high enough to score multiple degrees for the initial attack.

    II - 5/5
    I swear this tree is unfair. Getting 2 DoS with 5 test dice is far more likely than it sounds even without bonus dice and all you need is to deal even 1 point of damage (easily done by upping Athletics and/or Strength bonus dice). Even the guy with full plate will take an Injury for that 1 point just to avoid the automatic wound.

    III - 4/5
    Here is where it relents, but not by much. Now you need only deal damage to cause an automatic wound as the DoS requirement is lifted and it comes with a free Endurance test or get Maimed which can burn enemy Destiny Points. Possible Destiny Point burning aside, this is honestly overkill in most cases as 6 test dice will almost always result in 2 DoS anyway so you'll be fine with stopping at Axe Fighter II. Of course, if you REALLY don't want your enemy to survive, this is just gravy.

    Berserker - 4/5
    Free attacks out of turn are awesome considering the few alternative ways of getting them. The main drawback, of course, is that you suffer Injury and Wound penalties while attacking with no bonus dice so it shines until you can't take any more Injuries and/or have taken too many wounds. The Will test to keep going is good but, if you're rolling it, you're likely too crippled to land any attacks anyway unless you bank on Reckless Attack or use Glory/Influence/DPs to build up your dice pool or succeed again.

    Bludgeon Fighter I-III
    I - 4/5
    Can't go wrong with +1 Shattering, but it gets better in that also stacks with a weapon's existing Shattering value. With this Benefit you can break parrying weapons and small shields with one blow without resorting to a warhammer then proceed to break your enemy's armor after. If you DO use a warhammer, then you can speed this process up quite nicely.

    II - 4/5
    When you've got your momentum going, this can keep it going harder for longer. Diet Staggering hurts to be on the receiving end of and imposing flat minuses to your enemy's test results kick them while they're down after taking enough Injuries and/or Wounds.

    III - 4/5
    Steep price tag, but not impossible for a bludgeon weapon lover and not as expensive as Triple Shot. 6D can get you those three degrees with decent consistency and the free wound, knockdown, plus loss of a Lesser Action can really do a number on your opponent. Your odds are even better if you can set them up using something like the Distract action.

    Braavosi Fighter I-III
    I - 0/5
    At best, a +2 to CD (and mitigating the loss of Defensive +2 on a Left-Hand Dagger in your off-hand). A bad investment to be taken only for thematic purposes.

    II - 0/5
    A Greater Action to attack with no bonus dice for the benefit it gives is terrible. At Rank 5, you're looking at roughly +3 to CD on average and gods help you if you roll low and miss. It also doesn't help that it only lasts until your next Fighting test. Acrobatic Defense trumps this, especially since you're investing in Agility if you're a fencer anyway. A bad investment to be taken only for thematic purposes.

    III - 0/5
    One of the benefits of Berserker that applies only if the enemy misses and AFTER you spend effectively 100xp on 2 terrible prerequisites. Given how much effort is needed to get high CD, this is a bad way to go unless you're seriously committed to fencing which can gimp you in other aspects rather badly. It also doesn't help that this overlaps with Water Dancer thematically and that line of Benefits is far better.

    Brawler I-III
    I - 2/5
    The Fast property aside, you're investing in this purely for prerequisite reasons because Gauntlet's damage rating can be easy to acquire, barring specific circumstances.

    II - 4/5
    This is more like it! Pump (ba dum tsss) your Athletics + Strength and turn those gains into pains (for your enemies). Adding your Athletics rank to your Fighting test result means doing so effectively pumps your Fighting as well so it's a win-win.

    III - 3/5
    Stunning an enemy can be good, but 3 DoS is a steep price tag when those could be used to perform ye olde facelift on him.

    Danger Sense - 4/5
    The Improved Initiative of SIFRP and then some. Never a bad pick as winning Initiative means you get first crack at ruining your enemy's day and denying the +1D on surprise attacks is very much welcome.

    Deadly Shot - 0/5
    Piercing 1 is easily upstaged by just getting another rank in Agility or a Strength specialty die (for a Double-curved Bow) which will do more for you. Also, I don't think they thought it through that taking this Benefit makes you forget how to shoot without killing your target (which ironically makes you a worse marksman).

    Deft Hands 4/5
    Nice pick for ranged characters as it improves your action economy by making your crossbow of choice easier to reload. Barring special circumstances, the Myrish crossbow is the best choice among crossbows, but Light and Heavy are just fine. Medium crossbows lose out to the others for half-assing its abilities, but it's up to you if you want it.

    Double Shot > Triple Shot
    DS - 5/5
    A lovely Benefit for archers. An additional attack with only a -1D penalty which is mitigated by letting you retain use of your bonus dice. If playing an archer, you'll have invested enough to meet the prerequisites for this so it's a no-brainer. Put 2 more points in Bows for the max of 5B and you're gold.

    TS - 3/5
    Three attacks per round can elicit cries of grief from your unfortunate victims, but the prerequisites are steep which make it a poor choice for all but the most dedicated archers that choose to go all-in.

    Fast - 3/5
    An extra yard of movement is nice, but that can be replicated by 2B in Run or an Acrobatics check (although they stack) so the bigger draw is the x5 multiplier for sprint. It can mitigate the movement problems of heavier characters, but mounts can do that as well. IMO archers get more out of this for kiting and positioning purposes. Not one of the best ways to spend your DP, but it's not a waste.

    Fury - 2/5
    The penalty to Fighting is too heavy for it to be worth the investment (there are other Qualities you can take to show how angry you are, like Berserker). Higher ranks in Fighting could cushion the penalty, but you'll get more out of banking on DoS, especially if the rules on Critical Hits are implemented in your table. This MIGHT see some use if you fight enemies with low CD and high AR (most knights and soldiers) using a character that doesn't invest too heavily in Fighting ranks and/or specialty dice, though.

    Hail of Steel - 2/5
    Not a terribly powerful choice on its own, but it's one of the few Benefits that matter to Thrown weapons. Bows and crossbows undoubtedly dominate ranged combat, but if you're not keen on carrying those (maybe you're a thief, assassin, or rogue type) it's not without value. Pair Thrown weapons with poison and/or surprise attacks to improve your odds with Divided attack and this should matter more.

    Long Blade Fighter I-III
    I - 2/5
    Pre-errata, its benefits are not particularly stellar due to how likely you can get 2 DoS and up on your own by putting more xp into Fighting. The penalty to an enemy's CD when they use a non-shield parrying weapon is too specific to be worth it unless you often encounter fencers. Post-errata is no better though the +1 to your Fighting test result against anyone not wielding a shield is only marginally better. This has value in situations where your enemy's CD is low which can let your free degree push your attack to deal damage with 3-4 DoS.

    II - 2/5
    This lets you get around having to beat the enemy's passive Fighting test when using Maneuver (under Advanced Combat) to move him though you give up imposing a -1D on their tests for the next round. Knocking an enemy around can be useful depending on how big a factor environments are for you and your group. You need to make sure the opponent is worn down so that they can fail their Awareness to notice hazardous areas you want to knock them into. One good thing about this Benefit is that you have control over how many bonus dice you give up.

    III - 2/5
    Similar to Bludgeon Fighter III but you don't get the free knockdown which lowers this Benefit's rating. Even worse that the prerequisite Benefits also pale in comparison to those that come before BF III.

    Pole-arm Fighter I-III
    I - 5/5
    Pre-errata, its granted ability effectively replaces the Knockdown action and can be used against multiple targets if your dice pool can shoulder the cumulative -2 penalties. Errata clarifies it as an added effect to your attack and now requires that you use a Greater Action, but now it is applied on top of your attack's damage which adds even more icing on the cake if you still manage to score multiple DoS on your targets.

    II - 3/5
    A strong upgrade for pulling riders, especially skilled ones, off their mounts though failing is riskier than attempting to do so normally. It is strong for the area it chooses to augment, but it is too specific in application to have a higher rating. This increases in value if you frequently engage mounted combatants.

    III - 4/5
    Pseudo-Impale for your Pole-arms. It doesn't come with the damage caused by getting your enemy impaled, but denying them actions remains a good thing. Utilizing this is safer than actual Impale as you do not get disarmed on failure and you add your Pole-arm bonus dice to the opposed test. Wording does not explicitly mention that your attack deals damage, but it makes sense for it to do so (when in doubt, ask your GM).

    Shield Mastery - 3/5
    Effectively double your shield's Defensive bonus with this Benefit. Good for heavily-armored characters who want more CD, but obviously moot for those that like 2-handers or dual-wielding. Agile fighters can also use this as a way to propel their CD to the skies. This also works for someone who wishes to try playing Steve Rogers.

    Short Blade Fighter I-III
    I - 1/5
    I rate this higher than Deadly Shot despite it providing the same +1 Piercing due to the fact that, barring Stilettos, short blades stand to benefit more from it.

    II - 4/5
    Being able to draw a blade faster has its uses, but the flat bonus to Fighting test results can easily add up to virtually an extra 1 or 2D which can really push your ability to score multiple DoS or make it a terrifying secondary or hidden weapon.

    III - 4/5
    While it's a shame that the damage is applied after calculating for DoS, 1 damage for 10xp is a good trade if you don't intend to increase your damage stat for some reason. Against targets with low AR, your blades will turn them to confetti and your bonus damage can be considered Piercing on steroids against those with high AR.

    Spear Fighter I-III
    I - 0/5
    Well, it's an extra attack...if you miss...that can only be made against a different target...that requires a Greater Action. This seriously needs a rework because a competent spear fighter tries hard not to miss by investing in Fighting and Spears. Usually, you'll start missing are when you're outclassed, wounded, or taking on a Unit (in Warfare terms), basically at a disadvantage. This is a problem because that also means your odds of landing the extra attack are no better on top of the simple fact that this is useless in single combat.

    II - 3/5
    It's diet Reach for spears that aren't the Tourney Lance but doesn't suffer the -1D when in close range. Paired with a +1D to Knockdown, it's a decent Benefit but this could have been Spear Fighter I instead, IMO.

    III - 0/5
    Piercing 2 that doesn't stack as no spear has Piercing by default unless your GM wills it. Pole-arm Fighter has this tree beat.

    Tough - 2/5
    This Benefit lets you squeeze out a little more HP from your Endurance for when you REALLY don't want to go down. You can get more HP over time without increasing your Endurance rank as slowly adding points into Resilience adds up so it helps when other abilities need the bulk of your XP. The downside to this is that Resilience coming up often enough to make it worth investing in is highly situational so this is usually not worth the DP.

    Tourney Knight - 1/5
    A niche choice. Depending on your campaign, this may or may not appeal as tourneys usually don't come up often enough for this Benefit to be worth taking.

    Water Dancer I-III
    I - 4/5
    For such light prerequisites, this can easily add up to +5 to your Awareness test results in most cases which can do much for a fighter intending to succeed in spotting important details. To some extent this also leads to secondary benefits when engaged in Intrigues.

    II - 4/5
    This is a boon for your Initiative and the myriad Agility tests you roll to do cool things. The best part about this and WD I? You only need the 1B in Fencing and don't even need to behave like a fencer by laying off bulky armor.

    III - 3/5
    As with the others, this is a choice reserved for devoted fencers. 10xp to up your chances of scoring more degrees per attack AND +1 to CD? Sign me up. It has the same armor restriction as Acrobatic Defense and so the two go together quite nicely. It's a hefty investment, but get this tree and AcroDef and you can live the Princess Bride life.

    Weapon Mastery > Improved Weapon Mastery
    WM - 0/5
    Just up your damage stat. It's cheaper and benefits more things. A higher-quality weapon handles this already though I acknowledge that Extraordinary weapons are rare.

    IWM - 0/5
    Just up your Fighting. It's cheaper and benefits more things. A higher-quality weapon handles this already.

    Weapon Savant - 1/5
    Another niche choice. Most characters who expect fighting tend to focus on one or two weapons which makes taking this a bad idea. This saves you 10-20xp per weapon that requires training so mixing and matching or taking up the weapons of others (likely via Disarm) should be something you intend to do fairly often for this to be worth it. I imagine a generalist, Rambo, or a weapon master can make room for this.


    'All men must serve'

    Inspiring - 3/5
    An additional order is nice but, more importantly, this Benefit allows you to turn your orders into rerolls that won't increase the Discipline difficulty you have to beat. Investing in Warfare is a better choice, but this is good insurance, especially when you get wounded. Arguably not as good as Leader of Men, but not a bad choice for a commander.

    Leader of Men - 5/5
    Never a bad choice for a commander-type character. That free recovery for disorganized or routing units per round is one less order you need to give and does nothing to impede your action economy.

    Social Benefits
    'When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die'

    Adept Negotiator - 4/5
    A good choice for players who intend to focus on Persuasion to get their way in Intrigues. Avoiding the huge -6 penalty to Persuasion checks from being Malicious means you get to roll at full strength AND enjoy the high DR from it. Of course, it's more likely that you'd be lying to each other, but genuine negotiators are not extinct.

    Attractive - 4/5
    Anyone who cares about rerolling 1s on Persuasion tests are likely to get up to 2-3 rerolls which lets you keep the momentum going. It is odd, though, that looking good can also make you more intimidating.

    Authority - 2/5
    A small reduction in Persuasion penalties from Disposition compared to what Adept Negotiator offers, but it's constant and can't be taken away when your disposition is known. I like it more for fluff purposes as the minus 2 is easily replaced by a much cheaper +1B for 10xp.

    Charismatic > Compelling/Magnetic
    Charismatic - 2/5
    A flat +2 is underwhelming and you're likely only taking this for Charm because you want Magnetic.

    Compelling - 0/5
    +1 to Influence. Weapon Mastery for Intrigue. Don't bother and pump your favored "damage" stat instead.

    Magnetic - 4/5
    Make everyone like you after just one Intrigue. Get 4B in Charm and you can easily defuse a hated enemy or instantly make friends wherever you go to help get what you want. While powerful, I don't give this a max rank because your GM surely won't allow you to simply get everyone's disposition up that far all the time.

    Courteous - 3/5
    A character who utilizes both approaches is likely to get at least a +2 flat bonus out of this which is nice but not as substantial as Treacherous. However, Cunning Rank to improve your defense against Read Target is nice if you feel the need to augment it, especially since mix and matching Deception and Persuasion will likely leave you with Rank 4 in both instead of 5 or 6 in either.

    Dutiful - 2/5
    -1D to the most common techniques that use Persuasion is nice and it's good for thematic reasons. Of course it won't do much to help you against an opponent with 6-7 test dice, but it can make all the difference when dealing with those at Rank 5 and lower. You could take this plus Respected to cover your bases, but the -1D for 100xp is just not worth it.

    Eloquent - 3/5
    Forget about testing Status to go first. To really make this shine will depend on your storyline since you're likely getting 4 Ranks in Common and calling it a day most of the time. There are multiple ways to make languages matter, but you won't particularly need this unless you're very heavy on Intrigues and multi-lingual encounters.

    Favored of Nobles/Smallfolk - 0/5
    Situational 1B. Don't bother. A bad investment even for thematic reasons as being in their good graces does more for you than these ever will.

    Respected - 1/5
    Not quite worth the investment as the techniques this will defend you against likely won't come up too often compared to Convince, Seduce, and Charm. Take it for fluff reasons if you wish, but I don't recommend it.

    Stubborn - 3/5
    The Tough of Intrigues. A little better in that you can easily find your dedication tested in a setting like GoT and it makes you into a tank when employing Withdraw in an Intrigue on top of the additional Composure.

    Treacherous - 5/5
    Anybody who cares to invest in Deception (it's GoT!) will want this as their Cunning is surely at least +4.

    Worldly - 1/5
    Rating marginally goes up if your group frequents the Free Cities or deal with people from there or further which maximizes the +2B on any Persuasion technique employed on them. Otherwise, don't bother if you mainly deal with Westerosi people.

    Ability Benefits
    'My mind is my weapon. My brother has his sword, King Robert has his warhammer, and I have my mind… '

    Artist/Trade/Mummer - n/a
    I find that these are very much thematic choices. Their mechanical benefits have more to do with minor utility that could be better used when you play one of the commonfolk or low-Status people in general (otherwise, being someone of import and other Benefits can fill these in by themselves).

    Eidetic Memory
    Face in the Crowd
    Gifted Athlete
    Gifted Teacher
    Great Hunter
    Head for Numbers
    Keen Senses
    Knowledge Focus
    Miracle Worker
    Terrain Specialist

    Fate and Heritage Benefits
    'Never forget who you are, for surely the world will not...'

    NOTE: I'm leaving out a number of Benefits because you don't take them for the perks so much as they're required by your character concept. In-game, these are more likely GM rewards because your choices led to them.

    Animal Cohort
    Night Eyes

    Blood of the Andals
    Blood of the First Men
    Blood of Heroes
    Blood of the Ironmen
    Blood of the Rhoyne
    Blood of Valyria
    Blood of the Wildlings
    Last edited by marauder340; 6th July 2017, 08:43 AM. Reason: Added more Benefit ratings and explanations

  • #2
    Re: A Guide to SIFRP's Benefits and Then Some (WIP)

    So for some reason it says I'm logged out when trying to create my own thread. But is letting me post here.

    My question was similar to what you are talking about, so I hope you don't mind if I ask you it. In terms of Long blade fighter I, II, III (Among others) Do all the effects stack or do you have to pick only one to use? I always get confused by it. Sorry if this is a little out of place.


    • #3
      Re: A Guide to SIFRP's Benefits and Then Some (WIP)

      Originally posted by Azai View Post
      So for some reason it says I'm logged out when trying to create my own thread. But is letting me post here.

      My question was similar to what you are talking about, so I hope you don't mind if I ask you it. In terms of Long blade fighter I, II, III (Among others) Do all the effects stack or do you have to pick only one to use? I always get confused by it. Sorry if this is a little out of place.
      I always understood it that the benefits stacked from multiple X Fighter qualities and that you could switch between them at will.


      • #4
        Re: A Guide to SIFRP's Benefits and Then Some (WIP)

        Okay, cool. Thank you. It was always a bit hazy to me whether you could switch between the powers or on every time you use these fighter abilities you literally use all three of them at the same time.


        • #5
          Re: A Guide to SIFRP's Benefits and Then Some (WIP)

          Overall, I disagree quite a bit: a few highlights:

          Anointed in isolation from it's requirement (which I for argument's sake I'll assume is worth a DP, but that depends on your narrator) is pretty good actually. +5 Defense for one round can win a combat/intrigue.

          The armor mastery line is also not Excellent/Poor, the first quality is better because it allows better defense for less movement restriction (although tower shields if used throws a bit of a spanner in that calculation), but it's not better than a 3, and it's not that much better than the improved version.

          AXF I is meh, the only reason to take that is to qualify or AXF II which is broken.

          Most of the X Fighter lines that you have rated highly doesn't give enough bang to warrant 4's and 5's.

          Tourney Knight depends on the campaign and character, for a jouster that gets to do a lot of jousting, it's pure gold.

          Attractive is probably not a 4, and honestly, just the reroll is maybe a 1 tbh, what qualifies for a 3/4 is that everyone starts out with better disposition towards you. If your narrator didn't see that line in the book, then write in your character description that you're pretty and don't take this quality. Blood of the Andals can do the same, except you get a +2 daily bonus to have fun with (which so happens to be better than the rerolls granted by attractive/BoA)

          This one gets bold text:
          Eloquent is without a doubt the most powerful intrigue quality in the book. No competition at all, on a rank of 1 to 5, Eloquent gets 5 and all other intrigue qualities gets less, end of discussion.

          Treacherous is not that good, arguably courteous could be better since it applies to all deception tests (not just intrigue related ones). Neither of those are above 3 though. They fall into the category of "specialization enhancers", you lie a lot then they will serve you very well indeed. Eloquent serves anyone entering intrigue.


          • #6
            Originally posted by Zorbeltuss View Post
            Eloquent is without a doubt the most powerful intrigue quality in the book. No competition at all, on a rank of 1 to 5, Eloquent gets 5 and all other intrigue qualities gets less, end of discussion.
            Why is that? I'm a bit new to this game and after rereading the Intrigue rules just now, I don't see why going first is such an OP thing. I'd love to hear what I'm missing.

            (Also, this is a REALLY useful thread! Any chance marauder or anyone else will continue it?)
            [B][URL=""]My Collection of M&M (3E) House Rules[/URL][/B]
            Including . . .[LIST][*]Combat "Boosts," Investigation Montages, and more[*]New Powers, Advantages, and Gear[*]Worked Examples and Rules Clarifications[/LIST]


            • #7
              Going first is a massive advantage, all else being the same, no other benefit can possibly come close to match it's utility in intrigue.


              • #8
                While I agree the going first is very powerfull, since it has the potential that you defeat you enemy or "wound" (aka he must take frustration) before he could do that to you, that this advantage requires not only Persuasion but also Language 4 is somehow a negative point. That you need Persuasion 4 is not that bad since that is a logical choice for every social player (although some mey decide to concentrate on Deception). Language is another thing. You have to spend 30 points at creation (or later) to get that far in language, in a ability which you not very often use (for most questions language 3 is enough). Many other social qualities either have no minimum to a certain ability or those they have are directly and quiet often needed on the social battlefield (like Will, Deception/Persuasion and even Awareness-Empathy)


                • #9
                  Eating those 30XP and taking Eloquent still beats just about any other combination of benefit and 30XP spent elsewhere as far as pure intrigue ability goes. At most there may be some other combinations that achieves parity in certain concepts, but it's rather easy to build your character around eloquent to blow all those contenders out of the water.