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  • Wounds

    Hey all... I'm looking for a little clarification on Wounds. Do they reduce passive abilities?

    I ask because just last night I had a badly wounded player wielding a spear. As their enemies closed around them, he was using this spear to get free attacks because his passive with a spear is something like 22. I checked the rulebook, but as far as I could tell his two wounds wouldn't reduce that damage, so he was able to use his passive attacks to outright kill or badly injure the approaching enemies despite his weakened state. It didn't seem kosher to me.

    What do you all think?

  • #2
    Re: Wounds

    How does he get to use his passive for attack?

    No, wounds doesn't reduce passive results, but I cannot ever recall having seen a way to use those to attack.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Wounds

      from pg 175

      Free Attacks
      Free attacks are best used with the optional reach rules. A free attack is
      a special attack that triggers when one combatant incautiously moves
      away from another combatant. Any time a character starts inside another
      enemy’s optimal weapon reach and uses an action to move more
      than 1 yard, the character is at risk of being hit by a free attack. The
      enemy compares his or her passive Fighting result to the character’s
      Combat Defense. Should the passive result equal or beat the character’s
      Combat Defense, the enemy hits and deals damage as normal. Once the
      character is no longer inside another combatant’s optimal reach, he or
      she may spend actions to move normally.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Wounds

        Originally posted by Seth View Post
        from pg 175

        Free Attacks
        Free attacks are best used with the optional reach rules. A free attack is
        a special attack that triggers when one combatant incautiously moves
        away from another combatant
        . Any time a character starts inside another
        enemy’s optimal weapon reach and uses an action to move more
        than 1 yard, the character is at risk of being hit by a free attack. The
        enemy compares his or her passive Fighting result to the character’s
        Combat Defense. Should the passive result equal or beat the character’s
        Combat Defense, the enemy hits and deals damage as normal. Once the
        character is no longer inside another combatant’s optimal reach, he or
        she may spend actions to move normally.
        Note the bolded part. It seems to me that the intent is only to allow free attacks when an enemy is trying to move away from a character with a reach weapon. However, the rest of the rule doesn't make such a clear distinction, so I suppose one could interpret it as allowing free attacks against enemies who try to close as well.

        If you do read the rule in a more liberal spirit, note that it says it only works when a character starts inside a weapon's optimal reach. In the case of a spear (reach 3) a free attack would thus only be delivered if the enemy starts at reach 2 and moves more than 1 yard. The reach rules on p. 175 allow attacks within 1 yard of your optimal weapon reach, so even with reach 0 weapons your NPCs should have been able to safely move 1 yard and attack (move to reach 1, attack at -1D). If they start at reach 1, the spear-wielder shouldn't be able to attack at all, since he can only attack at reaches 2-4.

        Does that help?

        /rax

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Wounds

          Couple of thoughts on that. First off I disagree with Zorbeltuss. Pretty sure this is a common argument so you might find more info searching, but the crux of it is a wound applies a -1d to all tests and Passive tests are still tests. It does not however apply a penalty to Combat Defense. However Flaw does.

          Anyway beyond that.
          Why are the enemies moving in more than a yard at a time if it would cause them to be attacked? Wouldn't they use one move to get beyond optimal range, get inside with a second move, and spend a fatigue to attack? or if you're not using fatigue rules(which you should be if your using the advanced reach rules), two moves and then wait for the PC to back away?

          Or simply surround them, don't get in range and let the guy bleed to death.

          Or using a dodge action to get close.

          Or attacking the weapon to break it before coming in.

          Or sprinting in, giving him another -1d via the moving target rules.

          I would also limit the number of times they can perform the free attack, probably to 2, but maybe 3 if 3 people all came in at the same time. You get as many free actions as you want, but the narrator is free to limit this, and spinning in a circle attacking 7 people seems to stretch credulity as a free action.

          I would also allow the distract action to give someone behind the character an opportunity to substitute stealth for dodge. Or perhaps to simply bypass the free attack altogether. There's nothing in the rules explicitly allowing that, but it makes sense that a person would not be able to attack someone they didn't know was there.

          All in all, there are tons of tactical options the enemies could take to mitigate the free attack scenario, even if you were to allow Passive tests without penalty dice.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Wounds

            Originally posted by Addicted2aa View Post
            Couple of thoughts on that. First off I disagree with Zorbeltuss. Pretty sure this is a common argument so you might find more info searching, but the crux of it is a wound applies a -1d to all tests and Passive tests are still tests. It does not however apply a penalty to Combat Defense. However Flaw does.

            Anyway beyond that.
            Why are the enemies moving in more than a yard at a time if it would cause them to be attacked? Wouldn't they use one move to get beyond optimal range, get inside with a second move, and spend a fatigue to attack? or if you're not using fatigue rules(which you should be if your using the advanced reach rules), two moves and then wait for the PC to back away?

            Or simply surround them, don't get in range and let the guy bleed to death.

            Or using a dodge action to get close.

            Or attacking the weapon to break it before coming in.

            Or sprinting in, giving him another -1d via the moving target rules.

            I would also limit the number of times they can perform the free attack, probably to 2, but maybe 3 if 3 people all came in at the same time. You get as many free actions as you want, but the narrator is free to limit this, and spinning in a circle attacking 7 people seems to stretch credulity as a free action.

            I would also allow the distract action to give someone behind the character an opportunity to substitute stealth for dodge. Or perhaps to simply bypass the free attack altogether. There's nothing in the rules explicitly allowing that, but it makes sense that a person would not be able to attack someone they didn't know was there.

            All in all, there are tons of tactical options the enemies could take to mitigate the free attack scenario, even if you were to allow Passive tests without penalty dice.
            This is why I come to these boards :-)

            Well, that and the cookies.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Wounds

              It's a passive result, not a test. The -2D does not apply. We've had that discussion before, yes, and that's the conclusion every time.

              The tactical way to handle that situation is to not move more than one yard per action while within weapon range. You can start outside of the range and charge just fine for example. And against someone wielding a spear? You can get inside his range and get free attacks against *him*.

              Or just bring your own spear. Or bows.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Wounds

                Originally posted by Zorbeltuss View Post
                It's a passive result, not a test. The -2D does not apply. We've had that discussion before, yes, and that's the conclusion every time.

                The tactical way to handle that situation is to not move more than one yard per action while within weapon range. You can start outside of the range and charge just fine for example. And against someone wielding a spear? You can get inside his range and get free attacks against *him*.

                Or just bring your own spear. Or bows.
                That's your conclusion. The books continually switch between the phrase test and result. On Page 54 of the of game of thrones edition, Specialties and Passive tests

                Whenever
                an opponent rolls a test against your passive test result, you may add the
                number of bonus dice from a specialty that most closely applies to your
                passive test result.


                The use of passive test result here seems to indicate that any passive result, is a passive test result.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Wounds

                  That very same section (along with the other place where it's covered) gives the method of calculation, Ability rank x4+specialty ranks. Additional test, bonus or penalty dices does not apply to it.

                  The only thing that comes into play are flaws, that specifically state that they modify this.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Wounds

                    Originally posted by Seth View Post
                    Hey all... I'm looking for a little clarification on Wounds. Do they reduce passive abilities?

                    I ask because just last night I had a badly wounded player wielding a spear. As their enemies closed around them, he was using this spear to get free attacks because his passive with a spear is something like 22. I checked the rulebook, but as far as I could tell his two wounds wouldn't reduce that damage, so he was able to use his passive attacks to outright kill or badly injure the approaching enemies despite his weakened state. It didn't seem kosher to me.

                    What do you all think?
                    I think you may be reading the description wrong. I'm just going by the quote you included in your message, but the way I read it, your spear guy does not compare his passive spear of 22 vs. his opponent's passive fighting. Your spear guy compares his *combat defense*. That's what your quote says: CD. That would be his Agi+Ath+Awa-AP, which is likely to be considerably lower than 22. Probably more like 10-15.

                    So just using the rule correctly may solve your problem; it's unlikely he's going to get many free attacks comparing CD vs. opponent's passive fighting.

                    As for whether wounds reduce passive traits, I would impose a -1 per wound (at least) just to be consistent with injuries. If you don't, then that makes wounds *less* of a problem for passive tests than injuries, because that -1 penalty says injuries apply to "all tests." Since it wouldn't be consistent for injuries to affect passive tests and wounds not, and since injuries seem to pretty clearly affect passive tests, I would say wounds should too.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Wounds

                      Originally posted by Addicted2aa View Post
                      That's your conclusion. The books continually switch between the phrase test and result. On Page 54 of the of game of thrones edition, Specialties and Passive tests

                      Whenever
                      an opponent rolls a test against your passive test result, you may add the
                      number of bonus dice from a specialty that most closely applies to your
                      passive test result.


                      The use of passive test result here seems to indicate that any passive result, is a passive test result.
                      To simplify things, ignore that you're talking about Wounds. A Wound is simply a means to convert/reduce damage in exchange for taking a penalty die.

                      So the question is (as always), do penalty dice reduce passive (test) results?

                      Short answer, no, because no where does it say they do.

                      Longer answer - what's the definition of a penalty dice?

                      Originally posted by Important Terms
                      A die subtracted from the test dice (starting with the lowest first) after any bonus dice have been discarded but before dice are summed to determine the result. A penalty dice is abbreviated -#D, where # is the number of penalty dice, e.g. -2D is two penalty dice.
                      Originally posted by Game Rules, Modifying Tests, Penalty Dice
                      Penalty dice are uncommon drawbacks imposed by wounds or flaws. Each penalty die cancels one test die when adding up your result. You apply the Penalty after you roll and after you drop any bonus dice. Penalty dice are abbreviated, too. When you see -1D, it means you have one penalty dice.
                      So, how can such apply to passive results? You have no test dice in a passive result - you just multiply your ability rank by 4 (with some fiddling if there are appropriate specialties). Note, this is exactly the same reason why Expertise doesn't factor into your passive result - it adds a test die, but you don't use test dice when determining a passive result. Also, it mentions using them when adding up your result, except you don't do that step when calculating your passive result. And it's after you discard bonus dice, except that again, there is no such step when determining your passive result.

                      Thus, the three things required for determining when/how penalty dice are processed are missing when determining a passive result, hence, penalty dice do not affect your passive result.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Wounds

                        Originally posted by easl View Post
                        I think you may be reading the description wrong. I'm just going by the quote you included in your message, but the way I read it, your spear guy does not compare his passive spear of 22 vs. his opponent's passive fighting. Your spear guy compares his *combat defense*. That's what your quote says: CD. That would be his Agi+Ath+Awa-AP, which is likely to be considerably lower than 22. Probably more like 10-15.

                        So just using the rule correctly may solve your problem; it's unlikely he's going to get many free attacks comparing CD vs. opponent's passive fighting.
                        You're a bit confused. Specifically, the section on Free Attacks is written in the sense of "how do you trigger/cause/avoid them", not "how do you get them"

                        If you start in reach of your opponent, and you move more than 1 yard, you compare your CD against his passive Fighting to avoid being hit by him.

                        As Zorbeltuss stated though, this is fairly trivial to avoid by not moving more than 1 yard, or by starting outside your opponent's reach (so charging in is fine).

                        Originally posted by easl View Post
                        As for whether wounds reduce passive traits, I would impose a -1 per wound (at least) just to be consistent with injuries. If you don't, then that makes wounds *less* of a problem for passive tests than injuries, because that -1 penalty says injuries apply to "all tests." Since it wouldn't be consistent for injuries to affect passive tests and wounds not, and since injuries seem to pretty clearly affect passive tests, I would say wounds should too.
                        Again, wounds and injuries do not affect passive results. They simply impose -1D or -1 respectively on tests. As above, penalty dice do not affect passive results.

                        I don't agree that "injuries seem to pretty clearly affect passive tests", simply because they're almost always called "passive results" (the few places I call them called "tests" they are still called "passive test result". More so, in the Narrator's chapter, under Managing the Rules, Passive Results, it mentions that "A Passive Result establishes the Difficulty for one character to do something to another character". Given that it is clearly stated as a Difficulty, as opposed to a test, it seems pretty clear that modifiers that affect tests don't apply.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Wounds

                          Originally posted by Zorbeltuss View Post
                          That very same section (along with the other place where it's covered) gives the method of calculation, Ability rank x4+specialty ranks. Additional test, bonus or penalty dices does not apply to it.

                          The only thing that comes into play are flaws, that specifically state that they modify this.
                          Mind posting the relevant text? I appear not to have the latest copy as mine makes not mention of that.

                          Originally posted by coldwind View Post

                          So, how can such apply to passive results? You have no test dice in a passive result - you just multiply your ability rank by 4 (with some fiddling if there are appropriate specialties). Note, this is exactly the same reason why Expertise doesn't factor into your passive result - it adds a test die, but you don't use test dice when determining a passive result. Also, it mentions using them when adding up your result, except you don't do that step when calculating your passive result. And it's after you discard bonus dice, except that again, there is no such step when determining your passive result.

                          Thus, the three things required for determining when/how penalty dice are processed are missing when determining a passive result, hence, penalty dice do not affect your passive result.
                          A valid interpretation. I just don't agree with it. Under penalty dice it says that you subtract 1 die from all test results. This suggest that something is removed from passive tests as well, as that's a type of test. While it says rank X4, the idea that rank = test die is a logical one and the big rarely if ever goes out of it's way to make a distinction between the two. Furthermore, it makes sense. Should a person with 4 wounds, on the verge of death, be as able to stand against an attempt to knock them down as they were when they were perfectly healthy? No, that's ridiculous.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Wounds

                            Seems to me this issue is purely a GM's call, depending on what type of game is being run (something the GM and PC's should agree on early). As long as the players and GM agree on the style and house rule calls, and keep to them consistently, then there shouldn't be a problem. If they can't agree, then getting some insight, different perspectives, and info. sources on the boards can help (but their dilemma doesn't have to become anyone else's). Here's my take on the Wound penalty issue:

                            If it's a gritty, harsh game where the PC's are meant to barely scrape by, then applying wound and injury modifiers to passive results makes sense. It increases the risks and dangers of letting your character get hurt, which can be a rewarding challenge to overcome or cleverly avoid. The spear wielder chose to take those wounds rather than yield, he'll have to suffer the consequences brought on by them.

                            If the game is more about the PC's bravely overcoming obstacles and accomplishing heroic deeds to be remembered in legend, then it makes more sense to only apply those penalties when the players are actually rolling dice out of their own hands. It increases the chances of success and adds heroic flair to the game, which can be a lot of fun. Let the spear wielder have his moment of heroic glory.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Wounds

                              Like in every other RPG, if the GM says "these are my rules" then the book can say whatever it likes on the subject. But if the GM says "We do RAW", then what the book says is important.

                              Here the book says:
                              Passive Result (interchangeably used with passive test result) equals 4Xability rank plus relevant speciality rank.

                              Flaws specifically makes you calculate passive results as if your ability rank is one lower. (along with reducing all derived statistics of that ability by 1)

                              Nowhere does it say that penalty dice, bonus dice or additional test dice affects passive results. No mechanic is provided to take such into account. As anyone with a evening course in law can tell you, if the rules say "do it like this", then you do it like this, and if there is no mention of "do it like that", then you cannot do it like that.

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