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Ares
04-21-2015, 07:45 AM
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Ares
04-21-2015, 07:46 AM
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"Compliments" of Brian Michael Bendis

FuzzyBoots
04-21-2015, 07:53 AM
Well, there's fanon confirmed. Except, well, as stated, the older Bobby apparently isn't? I suppose it's entirely possible that Professor Xavier helped at some point. Or this could just be more sloppy writing of the "Surprise! They're gay, even if they never showed any sign of it before" variety.

Assuming, of course, that this isn't a further sign of the "young Jean Grey has no telepathic ethics and little control" plotline in that she's unconsciously molding his thoughts because it makes him less threatening.

Michuru81
04-21-2015, 08:19 AM
I'm really not sure how I feel about that. Honestly, if you want to tell this story, that's great. This is awesome... but there's so many problems with how they're executing it. I mean, okay... if Young Bobby is gay, but Older Bobby is not, then is Bendis saying that homosexuality is a choice? That the older Bobby just magically decided that he wasn't going to be gay and he wasn't? He's sort of lamp-shading that a bit there, but still...

And then there's Jean. Okay, so Bobby's clearly struggling with his sexuality, and all he needed was someone to confront him with it? Maybe you can wave it aside by saying Jean's a telepath and would know best what Bobby needs to hear, but I would think that her approach here would be more harmful than anything. There had to have been a better way for her to support him... but this was the most expedient for the plot. Spending a few issues having Jean subtly telling Bobby that she loves him and supports him no matter what and then letting him be the one to out himself in his own time probably wouldn't fit into one TPB either.

It's great that Marvel wants to tell the story of a teen superhero coming to terms with their own sexuality, but it would be great if they executed it with a little more finesse.

FuzzyBoots
04-21-2015, 08:25 AM
Spending a few issues having Jean subtly telling Bobby that she loves him and supports him no matter what and then letting him be the one to out himself in his own time probably wouldn't fit into one TPB either.

It's great that Marvel wants to tell the story of a teen superhero coming to terms with their own sexuality, but it would be great if they executed it with a little more finesse.

As I understand it, this is one of Bendis's last issues, so he doesn't have the time to develop it. It's a pretty common trend in the comic book industry, deciding to introduce a bombshell in your last issue and then leaving others to deal with it. In some cases, it seems like a tactic of salting the Earth to ensure that the next writer can't use the character. 50/50 chance that it gets totally ignored or explained away in the next issue.

savijmuhdrox
04-21-2015, 08:29 AM
uh.. So younger Iceman is now gay? (sorry, the pictures weren't loading)

But older Bobby isn't? Huh?

Sounds confusing.. does this mean that older Bobby is in the closet? Is the current society safer for a young iceman to come out to, hence his never coming out before?

I hope not. THAT would all be dumb. If you can have alternate timeline versions of people be evil, or female or whatever... certainly a tweak to their sexuality isn't beyond the realm of comprehension.

If anything bugs me about what's been stated, its the need to do it to Iceman.. heck.. its Marvel's need to go back in time and get younger versions of the X-men TO BEGIN WITH.

You want to write stories about younger super-heroes being gay.. awesome.. Anole, Wiccan and Hulkling have got you covered..

Oh, what's that? You don't know how to write stories that make unknown characters popular? Ohhhhhh, that's something entirely different... but by all means, take one of these characters we've spent YEARS telling stories about and just go to town on them.

Michuru81
04-21-2015, 08:33 AM
As I understand it, this is one of Bendis's last issues, so he doesn't have the time to develop it.

Ah! Got it. I am shamefully out of touch. I haven't technically read a comic in almost a year, but I was a massive X-Men fanboy for decades. Marvel's propensity for relaunching books every few months, abandoning decent characters, and having large events that ignore continuity left me sort of disinterested.


It's a pretty common trend in the comic book industry, deciding to introduce a bombshell in your last issue and then leaving others to deal with it. In some cases, it seems like a tactic of salting the Earth to ensure that the next writer can't use the character. 50/50 chance that it gets totally ignored or explained away in the next issue.

Like when Joss ended his tenure on Astonishing by having Kitty ride a magic bullet into infinity.

Stupid Whedon...

Horsenhero
04-21-2015, 09:13 AM
Considering Kitty's magic bullet ride ended soon enough, it really doesn't matter.

Personally, if not for the movies, I'd say if you wanted to make one of the original X-Men gay or Bi, I would go with either the Beast (in 40 years of history he's had like 2 relationships and neither worked out for very long and his strongest attachment has been to Wonder Man...so, yeah), or I'd go with Jean, because her powers would probably attract her to a person's emotional/ethical self, as opposed to their physical self, so relationship with Scott could easily stand and her relationship with Storm (who shares many of the same leadership qualities with Scott) could get another look without it necessarily degenerating to the whole scissor-sisters fanboy thing.

Bobby, on the other hand, had a serious relationship with Darkstar (I know most people don't remember the Champions series, but I do) and has dated fairly consistently over the years. I figure this is just one more case of a writer struggling with what to do with Iceman. He was always the odd man out as far as the original X-men went. Scott was the "heir to throne", Beast was the genius, Angel was the rich, pretty boy (and visually a fan favorite) and Jean was the ingenue with the greatest potential. Bobby was sort of the ingenue/rookie too, but Jean had that role nailed down and Bobby wasn't written quippy enough to be the daredevil, impulsive one (ala Human Torch) or the comic relief (ala Spider-Man)...he was just kind of...there.

This just seems like another attempt to give Bobby something of his own and after 40+ years of character, it just feels...tacked on.

I've said this often and I'll repeat it here...Bendis really isn't that good a story writer. His dialogue is catchy, so people tend to miss out on the fact that his stories are often clumsy.

Arkrite
04-21-2015, 10:19 AM
Sounds like Marvel's trying to get some media attention, the LGBT crowd, and rial up the fanboys for some free press and attention.
As usual.

Ares
04-21-2015, 10:51 AM
Bendis works best as a co-writer and idea guy, and not as a solo writer. While he has done good things to certain characters, doing good work with Daredevil and making Luke Cage and Spider-Woman fairly big name heroes again, he can be infuriating in his treatment of characters and incredibly juvenile in his writing. He's like the Michael Bay of comics, just swap out big explosions with talking heads.

As someone who likes both Bobby and Jean, has been a longtime Marvel comics reader, someone who advocates tolerance and acceptance of non-harmful sexual relationships (IE, relationships between consenting adults that is mutually healthy, supportive and loving), and just someone who appreciates the written word, I find that whole mess eye rolling at best, mildly offensive at worst. It feels like I stumbled back into Chuck Austen or Grant Morrison's X-Men run.

Problem The First: Jean Grey just randomly invaded the privacy of a friend and teammates mind. It use to be that psychics in general considered invading another's thoughts without VERY good reason was an unacceptable breach of privacy. It was one reason among many that I hated Lwaxana Troi from Star Trek: TNG and disliked Prof. X and Jean from Ultimate X-Men. They were just so blasť about entering someones mind it was just grating. Jean is suppose to be Bobby's friend, and she basically did something incredibly invasive.

Furthermore, you have someone telling someone else what their orientation is, despite whatever protestations they might make. And not to play the sex card, but the only reason it might not be looked on as a terrible a thing is because you have a cute red-headed girl telling a guy what his sexuality is. Imagine for a moment you had a guy randomly scan X-13's mind and tell her "Nah, this whole lesbian thing you've got going is just a defense mechanism. You really like men, deep down". It would be considered incredibly sexist at best, invasive mind-rape at the worst.


Problem The Second: There's this somewhat uncomfortable idea that current Bobby is still in the closet, or that he's just not gay and his younger self is because one of them chose not to be gay. It's just remarkably dismissive of how sexuality works and the character's entire history where he's had several relationships. Some of said relationships were long term and while none of them lasted, the only relationship in comics that has really stood the test of time is Reed and Sue Richards, and that's largely due to Stan and Jack being the ones to marry them. So what is Benis trying to say here?

For that matter, what does Kitty Pryde being off world have anything to do with Bobby's sexuality?


Problem The Third: "They say everyone is bi". *pinches the bridge of their nose* No Bendis, they don't. Bobby and Jean wouldn't be having this discussion if they were. And honestly, if you were going to tweak Bobby's sexuality, Bisexual would have been the way to go. It lets his previous relationships still have mattered and still open things up if he wanted to be in a same-sex relationship. This actually seems somewhat demeaning to bisexuals and heterosexuals as it implies there really is no difference between them, when I know plenty of folks who would argue otherwise. Again, what is Bendis saying here? That you're either bi-sexual or you're gay?


Problem The Fourth: This builds off of Problems Second and Third, but this whole thing is just poorly written, confusing, and unnecessary. I mean, it's Bendis trying to handle a serious subject with established characters, so odds are it was going to be confusing from the get go. But what is the point of this, other than to give young Bobby some pointless melodrama and to make Jean Grey look like kind of a jerk for invading his privacy like that? Was this really something Bendis felt was SO important that he had to get it out there before he left the book?


It just seems like a bad decision with a poor execution. I'd be more annoyed with it save that it's likely going to be a minor blip on the X-Men radar.

Voltron64
04-21-2015, 11:40 AM
My headcanon for all this?

Considering the present didn't undergo a massive temporal shift/collapse/paradox when they stayed for a long duration, I'd say it's a safe bet that maybe the Time Lost X-Men aren't from the 616 past after all, and Beast just goofed.

FuzzyBoots
04-21-2015, 11:45 AM
Although, when Young!Cyclops was briefly dead, Current!Cyclops disappeared...

I'm really finding myself tending more towards "Jean is subconsciously changing Bobby to make him less threatening to her".

Ares
04-21-2015, 11:58 AM
Mine is more simply "Sexuality is not something Bendis should be allowed to write about".

Though honestly, if they were to go that route it could be a nice 'take that' to the fan girls who constantly seem to want to make any males who have any kind of deep friendship into a gay couple. I'm all for sexual diversity and representation in comics, but it gets a little annoying when you see characters whose relationship could be classified as 'brotherly', 'father/son' like or something similar being drawn kissing each other. Seriously, once "Winter Soldier" came out, deviantArt exploded with art of Steve and Bucky making out.

Yeoman
04-21-2015, 12:35 PM
Problem The Third: "They say everyone is bi". *pinches the bridge of their nose* No Bendis, they don't. Bobby and Jean wouldn't be having this discussion if they were. And honestly, if you were going to tweak Bobby's sexuality, Bisexual would have been the way to go. It lets his previous relationships still have mattered and still open things up if he wanted to be in a same-sex relationship.

It's also the only thing that makes sense unless they are from a different timeline. Which they've established they are not. Somehow.

So, you could have young Bobby is bi, being a young man who has found himself in a more accepting and progressive time, and more willing to admit it to himself, and Older Bobby is also bi, but has been repressing that, having grown up through that times that his counterpart skipped over.


Honestly, the whole young X-men in the future thing is a headache and the Watcher was right to call Hank a moron for doing this in the first place.

Yeoman
04-21-2015, 12:36 PM
Mine is more simply "Sexuality is not something Bendis should be allowed to write about".

Though honestly, if they were to go that route it could be a nice 'take that' to the fan girls who constantly seem to want to make any males who have any kind of deep friendship into a gay couple. I'm all for sexual diversity and representation in comics, but it gets a little annoying when you see characters whose relationship could be classified as 'brotherly', 'father/son' like or something similar being drawn kissing each other. Seriously, once "Winter Soldier" came out, deviantArt exploded with art of Steve and Bucky making out.

There are people unable to understand the idea that characters can have strong relationships without it being romantic. There's a reason to never look at fan art for Frozen or Supernatural.

Ares
04-21-2015, 12:43 PM
Honestly, the whole young X-men in the future thing is a headache and the Watcher was right to call Hank a moron for doing this in the first place.

This. A thousand times this.

But then again, between turning Cyclops into Che Guevara, the horror that was Iron Fist: The Living Weapon, the horrible actions of the Illuminati, Thor-girl, Fal-Cap, the mass slaughter of various cosmics, the only real fun thing going on in Marvel has been the Spider-verse stuff. Marvel has finally reached the point where it could use, if not a full on reboot, then more of an Infinite Crisis/Zero Hour one that lets them get rid of a few recent poor decisions.


There are people unable to understand the idea that characters can have strong relationships without it being romantic. There's a reason to never look at fan art for Frozen or Supernatural.

I do like that Supernatural has taken several episodes to mercilessly make fun of this.

Charles Phipps
04-21-2015, 12:50 PM
The bisexual erasure bothers me more than most.

If adult Bobby is bi, he could have been dating exclusively heterosexual this entire time.

No big deal.

No need to be hiding himself, it might just never have come up because he didn't fancy any dudes around the X-mansion. It happens.

It's a stretch but it happens.

If he's gay and closeted, that's something I THINK Professor X would have talked with adult Bobby about.

Michuru81
04-21-2015, 12:54 PM
Personally, if not for the movies, I'd say if you wanted to make one of the original X-Men gay or Bi, I would go with either the Beast (in 40 years of history he's had like 2 relationships and neither worked out for very long and his strongest attachment has been to Wonder Man...so, yeah), or I'd go with Jean, because her powers would probably attract her to a person's emotional/ethical self, as opposed to their physical self, so relationship with Scott could easily stand and her relationship with Storm (who shares many of the same leadership qualities with Scott) could get another look without it necessarily degenerating to the whole scissor-sisters fanboy thing.

Bobby, on the other hand, had a serious relationship with Darkstar (I know most people don't remember the Champions series, but I do) and has dated fairly consistently over the years.

Bobby has also had Polaris, Opal Tanaka, he crushed on Rogue post Age of Apocalypse, there was a flirtation thing with Emma after she came out of her coma, and then he had a fling with Mystique during one of her stints with the X-Men. Sure, there are plenty of gay people who carry on heterosexual relationships before coming out (or even before they realize it themselves), but that consistently? The X-Men are all about inclusion and tolerance, so having an established character coming out would work... just not someone who's been as consistently played as straight as Bobby.

You are absolutely right about Hank. Old Hank had Trish Tilby. Young Hank had a thing with Jean. Hank works. Hank would be awesome.

Honestly? You know who else would have been awesome? Ilyana. Seriously, when I started reading the pages in this post, I thought Jean was going to out Ilyana.

Charles Phipps
04-21-2015, 12:57 PM
Honestly? You know who else would have been awesome? Ilyana. Seriously, when I started reading the pages in this post, I thought Jean was going to out Ilyana.

That may be a poor choice given Ilyana's ideas of sexuality are as messed up as X-23's if not more so. Not whether she's gay or straight but that she was raised by demons who subjected her to countless implied horrors.

I'm a fan of the idea we need more Anoles and less potential mine-fields like that.

Michuru81
04-21-2015, 01:08 PM
I'm a fan of the idea we need more Anoles and less potential mine-fields like that.

Yes, please. Anole was amazing--not only because of his sexuality, but because he seemed to be the only person to recognize how nutty the world he lived in was. It was sad to see him exiled to the background in favor of new teenage mutants like Idie and Goldballs.

Yeoman
04-21-2015, 01:11 PM
This. A thousand times this.

But then again, between turning Cyclops into Che Guevara, the horror that was Iron Fist: The Living Weapon, the horrible actions of the Illuminati, Thor-girl, Fal-Cap, the mass slaughter of various cosmics, the only real fun thing going on in Marvel has been the Spider-verse stuff. Marvel has finally reached the point where it could use, if not a full on reboot, then more of an Infinite Crisis/Zero Hour one that lets them get rid of a few recent poor decisions.

I feel Marvel has a ton of good stuff. It's just not really their top tier books. It's the stuff where they just let the creative team do what they want. Books like Ms. Marvel and Nova.


That may be a poor choice given Ilyana's ideas of sexuality are as messed up as X-23's if not more so. Not whether she's gay or straight but that she was raised by demons who subjected her to countless implied horrors.

I'm a fan of the idea we need more Anoles and less potential mine-fields like that.

I get that Marvel wants characters with lots of public recognition to be something other than White Heterosexual Men.

But Retcons are not the answer. Either reboot, or create new, interesting characters that aren't. Like Anole. Honestly, with the right creative team and a good push, he and Rockslide could probably carry a book.

Michuru81
04-21-2015, 01:44 PM
Like Anole. Honestly, with the right creative team and a good push, he and Rockslide could probably carry a book.

I think it was the Serve and Protect mini series where they ran a four part story with the two of them becoming vigilantes in San Francisco? It was freaking amazing and left me wanting more.

Yeoman
04-21-2015, 01:48 PM
I think it was the Serve and Protect mini series where they ran a four part story with the two of them becoming vigilantes in San Francisco? It was freaking amazing and left me wanting more.


That thing was great. One of the best parts was their "disguises." ANole wears a giant Handlebar mustache and a hood and all Rockslide has is a hockey mask. AND IT WORKS. Because the news just has reports of Ben Grimm in a Jason Vorhees cosplay.

Voltron64
04-21-2015, 04:26 PM
There are people unable to understand the idea that characters can have strong relationships without it being romantic. There's a reason to never look at fan art for Frozen or Supernatural.

A slap on the face for that lot!

Kyle
04-21-2015, 05:40 PM
I think I get what Bendis was going for on those pages, but man is it awkward and clunky. What could have been an interesting look at the occasionally fluid nature of sexuality, and how we sometimes repress who we are to fit into an assumption about what society demands of us ended up being written with same cadence and importance that Bendis gives to goons talking about nothing at all right before Daredevil drop-kicks their faces in.

Iceman being gay doesn't bother me -- though I am bothered by the implication that a person can simply choose not to be gay as opposed to choosing to pursue those desires for whatever reason, often to the detriment of their own mental health -- but the nature of his being outed by Jean's crappy psychic ethics does beg the question why Xavier would have never had a similar, if somewhat more tactful, conversation with old Bobby. Xavier's ethics with regards to invading the minds of his students were even worse than Jean's. Would he not want to help his student to find a way to live with himself in a way he could be happy, and not have live a lie? The Xavier institute has had gay and bi students and teachers, so presumably Xavier isn't homophobic.

Hopefully whomever Marvel gets to helm the X-Titles post Secret War will be able to clean up this mess in a way that makes sense. If Iceman's gay, than let him be gay. Don't make half-measures with young Iceman being homosexual, and original Iceman being maybe not-gay. Have the two of them talk about it or something.

Also, while I'm sure it's an editorial decision, it still seems kinda ridiculous for Bendis to yell, "Iceman's gay! Bendis out!" and then throw down a smokebomb to escape any consequences in the confusion of Secret Wars.


Personally, if not for the movies, I'd say if you wanted to make one of the original X-Men gay or Bi, I would go with either the Beast (in 40 years of history he's had like 2 relationships and neither worked out for very long and his strongest attachment has been to Wonder Man...so, yeah)
Beast and Abigail Brand have been going out almost since she first appeared. So about a decade or so?

Regardless, that's no more or less evidence that Hank is gay than Bobby's string of failed relationships. Some people don't date a lot, while some people do. Some people stay in the closet until the day they die, while others are out and open in their early teens. Human sexuality and relationships are ridiculously complex.

Horsenhero
04-21-2015, 06:17 PM
Well to be honest my point was Beast makes at least as much sense as Bobby. On the whole, the entire thing is stupid, but to prove it's a pandering publicity stunt, Marvel once again arranged for Bendis to be interviewed on GMA to announce this little development.

So, as much as we may wish for this sudden change of a character with 50 years of history not to stick, it will for awhile as they milk it for all it's worth.

Kyle
04-21-2015, 07:04 PM
I'm more or less fine with the change. Continuity shouldn't get in the way of creators telling the stories they feel appropriate for the characters as they exist today.

My concern is now that they've made it, Marvel needs to fully embrace it to make sure the change sticks. Nothing good can come from trying to backtrack now, so hopefully they won't equivocate about original Bobby's sexuality very long and reveal that yeah, he's just as gay as his younger counterpart.

Stormson
04-21-2015, 08:18 PM
Iceman being gay isn't completely out of left field. It's been referenced before, and there was at one point going to be a story about it but it got squashed I believe. There was always speculation.

The worst part of this is Bobby doesn't admit to being gay until he's practically bullied into it by Jean Grey, and even when he mentions the most likely possibility, that he's bi, Jean Grey is like "Nope, I know you better than you know yourself, you're completely 100% gay!" .

I really hope the next writer just leads off with "I just said what she wanted to hear so she'd shut up."

saint_matthew
04-21-2015, 09:56 PM
M'eh. I honestly can't muster up the energy to be annoyed at this..... This exact breed of stupid has become so common in comic books these days & it's killed so many great characters by pandering to this kind of empty spectacle that I just can't muster up the energy necessary to be pissed off at it. It's just a writer f'ing with the fan base for crits and giggles, though I would like to nominate this scene for the "Whedon-Morrison bullshit comic writing, for the express purpose of narratively empty shock value award." Marvels really going to have to work hard to top this for this year & to think we have a pretty clear winner already for this year & it's only April.

*Sigh*

But to whoever said that Bendis should not write sexuality, I think at this point Bendis should not be writing at all. The man has run out of plot ideas a few years ago, now he's just phoning it in: Just look at the Powers Bureau & the complete cluster truck that that turned out to be & that was the best thing he's written in a couple of years.

savijmuhdrox
04-22-2015, 06:05 AM
On the whole, the entire thing is stupid, but to prove it's a pandering publicity stunt, Marvel once again arranged for Bendis to be interviewed on GMA to announce this little development.

THIS.

It's all being done for media coverage. That is what annoys me. Especially because.. you know.. Anole already exists. Just write about him if you've got this burning desire to explore young mutant sexuality.

If Bendis had any self-respect he would have ixnayed this the moment it was brought up (either by him or to him, I don't much care). And like I said before, the ixnaying really should have started with the original x-men in current time idea first.

I have much love for B-to-D list characters.. so I get especially vexed when they pass them over in favor of just muckety-mucking with the already established characters..

If Bendis wants to prove he's still got it.. here you go.. drop Anole, Armor, Shark Girl, Rockslide and one of Maggott's slugs into a new X-book and make it sell.

Okay.. you can swap out the slug for someone else.. that would just be mean.

Kyle
04-22-2015, 06:23 AM
I'm really impressed that the vast majority of the strum and drang about this story are regarding the implied bi-erasure, and Jean's lack of respect of Bobby's mental privacy, as opposed to railing against the change itself. I don't think that would have been the case ten years ago.

My absolute favourite comment and it so far though, has come from Fabian Nicieza's twitter feed (https://twitter.com/FabianNicieza/status/590660201818300416):


This whole #iceman thing comes outta left field, except to the THOUSANDS of #XMen fans who have been talking about it for the last 20 YEARS!

and this follow-up reply he made:


since I was writing it 20 years ago! most comic book forums have had an on-going "Is Iceman Gay?" thread for last 10-15yrs

ghostman76
04-22-2015, 09:02 AM
I have to agree with Kyle. Overall it's not that Bendis came up with a storyline that confirms Iceman's sexuality. The problems are 1) It really does come off as Bendis saying that someone can just choose not to be gay if it's inconvenient since time travelling Bobby is gay and modern Bobby isn't 2) Jean stating, "No way dude, you're no bi....you're 100% gay, regardless of what you say or feel, and 3) Jean just willy-nilly poking around in people's minds like it's no big thing.

Ever since Identity Crisis, it seems that there is no moral grey area for a psychic character to read even the inner most thoughts of their friends and teammates. It's just not right, and I do totally agree that if the roles were reversed and this was a dude telling a female character what she was REALLY thinking in the face of her protests to the contrary, then leading to her acquiescence that yeah, the man was right all along and she should've just accepted that in the first place there would be a WHOLE different conversation going on.

savijmuhdrox
04-22-2015, 09:15 AM
what I find interesting is what that says about todays society as opposed to whatever decade the original x-men were grabbed from.

and this has nothing to do with Iceman's orientation..

young Jean NEVER did that (Did she?).. and never would.. and now, she comes to the present and suddenly she's poking around in people's brains? I know our society today is bad.. but to have it affected or encouraged her to do as much so easily? wow.

she should be going Dark Phoenix any time now.. AND LOVING IT.

Stormson
04-22-2015, 11:47 AM
Yeah, Future Shifted Jean Grey is terrible, because they unlocked her abilities before they would have normally developed, (when shifted, she was just a telekinetic) and so she's got no ethical guidance what so ever and it shows. So, it's consistent with the scenario, but it does make the character a terrible person in the process.

luketheduke86
04-23-2015, 12:51 AM
I'm really impressed that the vast majority of the strum and drang about this story are regarding the implied bi-erasure, and Jean's lack of respect of Bobby's mental privacy, as opposed to railing against the change itself. I don't think that would have been the case ten years ago.

Yea, that's really surprised me too, but I'm glad that those are major focuses of people's critiques.

Having not read any of the newer X-men stuff, is Jean Grey in full control of her telepathic abilities? I'm just wondering if there's a chance that she's just instinctively picking up people's thoughts without actively prying, which isn't unheard of for telepaths in most media.

Kyle
04-23-2015, 06:21 AM
Rachel Edidin -- co-host of the Rachel & Miles X-Plain the X-Men podcast -- wrote an editorial for Playboy about the reveal and why she likes it, drawing on her perspectives and experiences as a queer person -- her chosen identifying term. It's a well thought out and interesting read. Link! (http://www.playboy.com/articles/one-of-the-x-men-is-gay-and-it-matters-more-than-you-think) Again, it's at Playboy, so you might not want to read it at work.


Having not read any of the newer X-men stuff, is Jean Grey in full control of her telepathic abilities? I'm just wondering if there's a chance that she's just instinctively picking up people's thoughts without actively prying, which isn't unheard of for telepaths in most media.

Teen Jean's telepathy was activated shortly after they were brought forward in time, which is way sooner than it was for Original Jean Grey. She doesn't have great control over it and does occasionally "overhear" the thoughts of others. There was a whole b-plot arc about Jean and Beast being awkward with one another because she overheard how attractive Hank finds her. However, she also isn't as respectful of personal boundaries as original Jean.

saint_matthew
04-23-2015, 06:59 AM
Again, it's at Playboy, so you might not want to read it at work.

Fun fact, the Playboy website went SFW a couple of months back (end of last year I think), trying to gain traction with click through traffic, by moving all its naked ladies to behind a pay wall, so it's pretty much SFW: At worst your boss catches you & you can legitimately claim that you were just there for the articles..... Because there isn't anything left but articles.

Unsurprisingly since then the page traffic has actually dropped.

As both an aficionado of the medium of print & someone who thinks that Playboy is attempting to appeal to non existent market share, I find this change both amusing & a veritable dead end.

But thank you for the link, it was interesting, if also incredibly silly.

Yeoman
04-23-2015, 08:57 AM
Rachel Edidin -- co-host of the Rachel & Miles X-Plain the X-Men podcast -- wrote an editorial for Playboy about the reveal and why she likes it, drawing on her perspectives and experiences as a queer person -- her chosen identifying term. It's a well thought out and interesting read. Link! (http://www.playboy.com/articles/one-of-the-x-men-is-gay-and-it-matters-more-than-you-think) Again, it's at Playboy, so you might not want to read it at work.

Here's the problem with that. Ask yourself this question: When was the last time Iceman was either Interesting or relevant? Honestly, it was probably over twenty years ago.

Sometimes I think people are referring to Top Gun when they reference Ice Man. And I'm a giant nerd. And I've never seen Top Gun.

And, it's not that I'm upset that Iceman is gay or not. I just don't care about Iceman. At all.

savijmuhdrox
04-23-2015, 09:12 AM
When was the last time Iceman was either Interesting or relevant?

Ooh ooh.. I got this one..

Age of Apocalypse no-mouth Iceman..

Horsenhero
04-23-2015, 09:50 AM
I'm with Yeoman here. For years they tried to make Iceman interesting without much success, and not because his powers are bad, but because way back in the day, all the original X-men had a character hook of their own...except Iceman.

I've got no issues with this except it seems like it's just about giving him a character hook. Now, there was an Op-Ed on comicvine that made one good point about this and that's unlike Northstar, Rictor, Shatterstar, Wiccan or Hulkling...Iceman is unlikely to vanish from the Marvel Universe as soon as the one writer who finds him interesting leaves the book. Iceman got in on the "ground floor" back in the Lee-Kirby days and much like the rest of those characters (the FF, Hulk, Thor, Iron-Man, Spider-Man, Ant-Man & Wasp, the other 4 original X-Men), he's part of the foundation of Marvel and isn't likely to go anywhere.

Honestly, the change itself isn't bothersome, but the way the scene was written is kind of cringe-worthy on a couple different levels, but it's Bendis and that's all I need to say about that.

Kyle
04-23-2015, 04:18 PM
Here's the problem with that. Ask yourself this question: When was the last time Iceman was either Interesting or relevant? Honestly, it was probably over twenty years ago.
Personally, I've never found Iceman to be all that interesting. And for a while now, the X-Men have kinda been the Cyclops and Wolverine show.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at, though. Just because you and I don't care about Iceman doesn't mean that he doesn't have fans, and the fact that he hasn't been a marquee character recently doesn't mean that Marvel shouldn't try to do something new with him.


I've got no issues with this except it seems like it's just about giving him a character hook.
What's the problem with trying to give a character a hook?

Horsenhero
04-23-2015, 04:27 PM
All I mean is if there isn't some sort of genuine character development planned for this and if this is just a way to give Marvel a chance to announce "something big" on Good Morning America or wherever then it's a crappy idea.

I find most things that are just marketing stunts crappy ideas. Should comicvine comment on this? Sure, you bet. IGN? Absolutely. Those are both media outlets that relate directly to the medium. GMA? Why? I'm pretty certain that GMA is watched primarily by people who could gives a rats ass about comics and the characters therein.

So yeah, in this case I smell a rat (or a Bendis), so I can loathe this for the cheap stunt it appears to be.

Charles Phipps
04-23-2015, 04:44 PM
I find it ironic really because Bobbie Drake is the male love interest in the movies for women characters.

Kyle
04-23-2015, 05:12 PM
All I mean is if there isn't some sort of genuine character development planned for this and if this is just a way to give Marvel a chance to announce "something big" on Good Morning America or wherever then it's a crappy idea.

I find most things that are just marketing stunts crappy ideas. Should comicvine comment on this? Sure, you bet. IGN? Absolutely. Those are both media outlets that relate directly to the medium. GMA? Why? I'm pretty certain that GMA is watched primarily by people who could gives a rats ass about comics and the characters therein.

So yeah, in this case I smell a rat (or a Bendis), so I can loathe this for the cheap stunt it appears to be.

Not to be dismissive of your perspective, but it kinda sounds to me like you're just looking for reasons to be upset.

If Marvel had announced it ahead of time -- as with the new Thor, or Sam Wilson becoming Captain America, or Brubaker's death of Captain America storyline -- I think your argument would be stronger. And yeah, the scanned pages were probably intentionally leaked to drum up some buzz, but whatever, Marvel's job is to sell comic books -- or rather, to maintain and develop Marvel concepts, so they can merchandise their intellectual property -- and it's hard to fault them for doing their job.

I choose to look at it from a more positive perspective. Marvel is aware that by opening themselves up to to traditionally underserved markets, they're finding new audiences -- DC is starting to wake-up to the fact as well, but seems much slower to catch on -- and that's a strategy they want to pursue, which I think is good for the medium as a whole.

Horsenhero
04-23-2015, 05:23 PM
Well I'll try to make sure my opinion passes muster before I give voice to it in the future.

Yeoman
04-23-2015, 05:36 PM
Personally, I've never found Iceman to be all that interesting. And for a while now, the X-Men have kinda been the Cyclops and Wolverine show.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at, though. Just because you and I don't care about Iceman doesn't mean that he doesn't have fans, and the fact that he hasn't been a marquee character recently doesn't mean that Marvel shouldn't try to do something new with him.

Just that I wouldn't really call this a "win." Sure, Iceman will be in comics. But he rarely does anything interesting. No one cares about him. Literally the most interesting thing about him is that he's a CPA. Not even that he turns into ice. Lots of characters have ice powers. Not too many accountant Super Heroes.

So, I guess it depends on if a group would rather he represented by someone that will just be there in the background forever, or someone interesting and dynamic, but who's visability may peter out when a writer leaves.

Kyle
04-23-2015, 06:38 PM
Well I'll try to make sure my opinion passes muster before I give voice to it in the future.
You're just as entitled to voice your opinion as anyone else. The last thing I want is to stifle discussion with anyone who is genuinely interested in talking and exploring different perspectives.

However, if your complaint is that Marvel is making an effort to promote their books, I'm not really sure what the problem is. They're a publishing company, and promoting their books is part of a sound publishing strategy.


Just that I wouldn't really call this a "win." Sure, Iceman will be in comics. But he rarely does anything interesting. No one cares about him. Literally the most interesting thing about him is that he's a CPA. Not even that he turns into ice. Lots of characters have ice powers. Not too many accountant Super Heroes.

So, I guess it depends on if a group would rather he represented by someone that will just be there in the background forever, or someone interesting and dynamic, but who's visability may peter out when a writer leaves.

But does the fact that Iceman has kinda been supporting cast necessarily mean that he will be going forward?

This is Bendis second or third last issue of the book, and I'm pretty sure it's one of the titles that's been cancelled, and will no doubt be relaunched after Secret Wars shakes out. Obviously the change had to be approved by their editors and creative directors, so either Marvel has a plan to deal with it -- maybe Iceman will get a solo title following Secret Wars, or maybe he'll get a push within whatever X-Titles either or both of them are appearing in -- or Marvel's editorial team should be out on the street looking for new jobs.

The obvious joke is that Marvel's editorial should be fired either way, but I like a lot of what Marvel has been doing lately.

And maybe if they do try to push the character, it won't work, and they'll move on to the next thing. Still, trying new approaches to characters is better than just keeping everything the same and continuing to stagnate.

Jabroniville
04-24-2015, 04:37 AM
I'll wait till the end of whatever the current arc is before getting upset or annoyed. For all we know, it'll be retconned by story's end, or it was an Icemanbot or something :).

Stormson
04-24-2015, 07:29 AM
I'm baffled at the outrage and disbelief that's happening in certain circles on this. There's been running fan theories about this for at least a decade, and it was even part of one run that Northstar thought Bobby was, but it was apparently editorially squashed.

I think it's meant to show the severe society shift that's occurred in the last 50ish years regarding acceptance, and it's not like it's a "never happened, no way" thing that someone who was gay went through the motions and didn't come out until way later in life to avoid repercussions, and for good reason.

You basically have a situation where a character was transplanted from the 60's to the current time, and things they thought would never admit in a million years at the time is now almost acceptable to come out and acknowledge.

The way Jean handled this however, was terrible, but I suspect because IC she's being portrayed as fairly unethical about how she uses her powers since being brought to the future, this was intentional.

I definitely expect an Iceman solo run soon, as a result of this, at the least, but whether it will be young or old iceman is another story.

Ares
04-24-2015, 07:56 AM
The 'fans have speculated character X was Y for decades' thing doesn't really mean much to me. There's people that have been speculating that Superman and Batman were gay, Batman and Robin were gay, and there's mountains of fan art depicting characters like Bucky and Capt. America or Thor and Loki as gay. Hell, we had people saying Karate Kid and Ferro were gay. Hell, you've even got folks pairing up the two leads from "The Kingsmen".

The point being is that you're always going to have a section of fans putting their own spin on a characters orientation and what relationship they should be in, despite what established continuity and all logic says. It's why shipping is such a big thing in fiction.

digitalangel
04-24-2015, 08:22 AM
I don't actually read many comics anymore, but used to read a lot of the X books. I'll still pick up a trade paperback from an event now and then if it interested me, but none of what I have heard about the whole "let's bring the young X-men to the future" idea has gotten me interested enough to pay much attention to it. Taking just these panels by themselves it comes off (to me) like young Jean hasn't learned to filter out the "noise" of people's thoughts around here more than purposefully invading his thoughts.

As someone who is a fairly "out and proud" lesbian without having to always be in people face about it either the only thing I see that aggravates me is the "everyone is bi" line. While sexuality is definitely a sliding scale more than a "pick A or B" type of thing, there are definitely people who are pretty close to 100% on only attracted to men or only attracted to women, and others that fall in the middle somewhere. Even most people I've ever known that were bi had a preference one way or the other, although sometimes that changed at different points in their life.

While not a fan favorite, I always thought Iceman has had some good moments over the years. I can understand a writer wanting to play the the ideas of morality and social issues through the lens of someone from a different time; and if done write could make a good story out of it. If they want to write about a young mutant that is also gay, there are other characters already out there, or heaven forbid that they create a new character. There have been rumors about about Bobby before, but there have been rumors about so many characters that it's ridiculous over the years. In general I'm more for taking an established character and letting them progress or change over time if there is a good story behind it, but this comes off a little "let's go screw with the character for publicity".

savijmuhdrox
04-24-2015, 08:33 AM
I don't actually read many comics anymore, but used to read a lot of the X books. I'll still pick up a trade paperback from an event now and then if it interested me, but none of what I have heard about the whole "let's bring the young X-men to the future" idea has gotten me interested enough to pay much attention to it. Taking just these panels by themselves it comes off (to me) like young Jean hasn't learned to filter out the "noise" of people's thoughts around here more than purposefully invading his thoughts.

As someone who is a fairly "out and proud" lesbian without having to always be in people face about it either the only thing I see that aggravates me is the "everyone is bi" line. While sexuality is definitely a sliding scale more than a "pick A or B" type of thing, there are definitely people who are pretty close to 100% on only attracted to men or only attracted to women, and others that fall in the middle somewhere. Even most people I've ever known that were bi had a preference one way or the other, although sometimes that changed at different points in their life.

While not a fan favorite, I always thought Iceman has had some good moments over the years. I can understand a writer wanting to play the the ideas of morality and social issues through the lens of someone from a different time; and if done write could make a good story out of it. If they want to write about a young mutant that is also gay, there are other characters already out there, or heaven forbid that they create a new character. There have been rumors about about Bobby before, but there have been rumors about so many characters that it's ridiculous over the years. In general I'm more for taking an established character and letting them progress or change over time if there is a good story behind it, but this comes off a little "let's go screw with the character for publicity".


well put on all fronts. I think the only thing missing is the point someone else brought up that because he's a core character, he's not going anywhere.. so it might as well be out in the open and just be accepted. I'd rather they use the already established as gay characters if they want to deal with that.. but that's more of my preference for reading about C-listers.. and not having everything always revolve around A-listers..

and in retrospect, there's no iceman story I've ever read where him being gay would have changed anything..

Kyle
04-24-2015, 08:50 AM
well put on all fronts. I think the only thing missing is the point someone else brought up that because he's a core character, he's not going anywhere.. so it might as well be out in the open and just be accepted. I'd rather they use the already established as gay characters if they want to deal with that.. but that's more of my preference for reading about C-listers.. and not having everything always revolve around A-listers..

Indeed. Bendis also introduced a new homosexual character in UNCANNY X-MEN. Benjamin Deeds. The new Morph, because characters with that name have a great track record. He hasn't really caught on. Granted, his powers aren't particularly spectacular, and his personality is kinda wishy washy.

But none of the new mutant characters Bendis has introduced, with the possible exception of Tempus, have really made waves. Gold Balls has a bit of following, but that's because there's now a character called Gold Balls. For anyone unfamiliar with the character, Gold Balls projects gold coloured -- but not actually gold -- balls out of his body.

Obviously creating a new character that catches on is not impossible -- as of November, MS. MARVEL had higher digital sales than any other Marvel title, and the first issue had seven reprints -- but that's really a lightning in a bottle scenario which seems to require as much luck as anything else.

Ares
04-26-2015, 08:02 PM
Bobby must be one of my 'Red Guardian Characters' as Jab put it, because I always liked the guy. Then again, he and Cyclops were my two favorite X-Men, so I'm not sure what that says about me. Bobby was more or less the X-Men's Johnny Storm but with the twist of inverted powers. He was the jokey comedian who was a bit girl crazy. Hell, most of his story arcs involved girls in some shape or form. The first time he used his ice powers in public was to save his then girlfriend (who rejected him for being a mutant), his weird mini-series involved time/dimensional travel with a girl that wound up being an abstract cosmic being, his time on the Champions was largely about his relationship with Darkstar, he was the X-Factor member with the longest lasting relationship outside of Scott and Jean, and it was Emma Frost that started him down the path about learning about his powers upper limits.

But the nice thing about Bobby as opposed to Johnny was that he was kind of allowed to mature, save when writers went back to basics with him. He went to college to be an accountant, was conflicted about whether he wanted to even be a superhero, and matured into a leadership role at several points. He should have been allowed to mature into a kind of jokey but responsible teacher, someone the kids like because he's held onto a bit of his childhood days, but has had it curbed with the harsh experiences he's endured.

Instead, what most writers have decided to focus on was Bobby's powers, specifically how he's one of the supposedly few but fairly numerous Omega Level Mutants. Aside from romance, his most recurring storyline has been about his powers growing, his powers going out of control, needing a device to restrain his powers, needing training to unlock his hidden potential, exploring that potential, etc. It's like they turned him into Gohan from DBZ. And while I was fine with him learning new applications for his powers, it got a bit ridiculous when they tried to make him into this unkillable being that fire didn't affect and who was theoretically a one man Global Ice Age waiting to happen.

So I really think Iceman's only flaw really is that we've had some writers that focus on the powers over the character and have had him suffer back to basics issues that stunt any kind of character nuance. And I don't think this is going to help any. Forget how badly it portrays Jean as either someone who doesn't respect the privacy of others or is messing with Bobby's head, forget how it disregards Bobby's history, and lets ignore just for a moment the 'everyone is bi buy you're still gay' comment. Only one of two things is likely to happen with this change.

A) It will be considered dumb and forgotten about at its earliest possibility.

B) It will stay and be what defines Bobby as a character. Because that's one of the only reasons to pull this kind of a stunt. If you wanted to do an examination of what it means to be a gay mutant, you have other gay mutants to do this with. This just smells of a kind of shock value stunt to either tick people off, draw people in, or show how progressive Marvel is being. And if it catches on, then the Marvel staff is almost certainly going to wind up doing to Bobby what being gay did to Northstar, namely that is ALL he's known for. His sexuality has more ore less become their characterization for the most part. The only thing Northstar was used for lately was so that Marvel could have their first gay marriage. And I've nothing against Northstar being gay, it was apparently what John Byrne had in mind for him and it doesn't contradict anything, but I'm not sure that 'being gay' should be their main character trait. Sexuality is an important part of a character's personality, but it shouldn't be their defining characteristic, anymore than Peter Parker being straight is.

Even the bi-sexual change would have fit better, because that doesn't ignore or paint differently all of his previous continuity, make Kitty's presence somehow important to his sexuality, and doesn't disregard the existence of bi being as unique an orientation as straight or gay. It just seems like a poor decision made for all the wrong reasons and handled in a very poor way.

Yeoman
04-26-2015, 09:33 PM
then the Marvel staff is almost certainly going to wind up doing to Bobby what being gay did to Northstar, namely that is ALL he's known for. His sexuality has more ore less become their characterization for the most part.

I disagree. His known as such to anyone that's never read a comic he's in. To anyone that has? He's known as a raging arrogant prick who happens to be gay.

Kyle
04-27-2015, 01:01 AM
Even the bi-sexual change would have fit better, because that doesn't ignore or paint differently all of his previous continuity, make Kitty's presence somehow important to his sexuality, and doesn't disregard the existence of bi being as unique an orientation as straight or gay. It just seems like a poor decision made for all the wrong reasons and handled in a very poor way.

I'm pretty sure the comment about Kitty being off in space was supposed to be a joke about how her relationship with Bobby failed so spectacularly that she felt the need to leave the planet. Also, I'd argue that while Jean's comments about how everyone is bi was awkwardly worded, the intent was to say that while sexuality is more of a spectrum than the binary orientation that it's often depicted as, her perception from Bobby's thoughts is that he's much closer to a six than a zero on the Kinsey scale.

How would Iceman being gay alter his previous continuity? He's still a superhero. He's still saved the world countless times. Nothing has changed except that now he's been closeted. Presumably. Bendis has said he'll clear up the issue of original Iceman in an upcoming issue of UNCANNY.

Kreuzritter
04-27-2015, 04:47 AM
Nobody's complaining about young-iceman being gay, Kyle. the concerns are that this was handled very poorly, and how future writers and editorial could mismanage this.

granted, they're doing a better job than DC...

saint_matthew
04-27-2015, 05:35 AM
Nobody's complaining about young-iceman being gay

I do. I have the same problem with it that I would have if DC today declared that Batwoman was now a raging Heterosexual.

Kyle
04-27-2015, 10:18 AM
Nobody's complaining about young-iceman being gay, Kyle. the concerns are that this was handled very poorly, and how future writers and editorial could mismanage this.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the tone of the posts here, but I'm reading what looks like a relatively high amount of equivocating and some outright objection.

FuzzyBoots
04-27-2015, 10:58 AM
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting the tone of the posts here, but I'm reading what looks like a relatively high amount of equivocating and some outright objection.

{nods} I'm not a fan of the development. I'll put that out there. It was clumsily done in my opinion, and carries about as much significance for gay rights as if Bendis had had Drake shot with a "gay gun" and declared it's the new status quo. This is, of course, assuming that Jean Grey is entirely on the level, that she's not willfully or accidentally misleading Bobby about the possibility about being bisexual, that she's not putting a mind whammy on him, etc.

So yeah, you can put me among the people who objects to this turn of plot.

ghostman76
04-27-2015, 01:39 PM
I do. I have the same problem with it that I would have if DC today declared that Batwoman was now a raging Heterosexual.

I can only speak from my own personal experiences, and I had a friend who for the first five years of our friendship I would have sworn in court was a straight male. He dated women, had an average all American upbringing, nothing would have led me to think anything different. That is until the day he came out to our circle of friends. He told us that he had known he was gay his whole life, but was trying to not let it show or "give in" to it because of several personal reasons that he felt he needed to adhere to. We were fully supportive of him and his decision and more than ten years later I'm happy to say that he found his perfect partner and is married to that man.

So it happens in real life. People can have secrets that they bury so deep that you might not ever know that they are living with those secrets. If it can happen in real life, then it can certainly happen in comics.

As I said before, I don't care if Iceman is gay. I just really dislike the way Jean went about outing him against his wishes and the wording that Bendis used in his script.

saint_matthew
04-27-2015, 05:45 PM
I can only speak from my own personal experiences, and I had a friend who for the first five years of our friendship I would have sworn in court was a straight male.

Sure & I had a hypothetical friend who for the first five years of our friendship I would have sworn in court was a lesbian, doesn't change the fact that I would be equally annoyed if tomorrow DC announced that Batwoman was straight. It is the worst kind of pandering to empty shock value.

Der Schatten
05-04-2015, 10:13 PM
Sure & I had a hypothetical friend who for the first five years of our friendship I would have sworn in court was a lesbian, doesn't change the fact that I would be equally annoyed if tomorrow DC announced that Batwoman was straight. It is the worst kind of pandering to empty shock value.

Difference of course being that the LGBT community is horribly underrepresented in comics (and geek-media in general), so taking some random character and 'making' them LGBT increases representation of minority groups, whereas taking one of the disturbingly few LGBT superheroes and 'making' them straight drastically decreases representation of minority groups. But you know, otherwise, they're exactly the same thing. :rolleyes:

saint_matthew
05-04-2015, 10:43 PM
Difference of course being that the LGBT community is horribly underrepresented in comics (and geek-media in general),

Not really. I mean if your going to take a strictly analytical view, the LGBT makes up only about 2% of the American population according to census numbers. So that would be 2 characters out of every 100 characters with an established sexuality for any given published setting. So if anything the LGBT is over represented in comics in comparison to its real life counter parts: I however wouldn't make that argument because it turns out the amount of people who wear long underwear & fight crime using super powers in the United States is 0%, which would kind of suggest that comics like all media aren't designed to represent census numbers. :)

Fact is that representation is immaterial to my point which is simply that both cases would piss me off equally because they would both pervert who a character is for the specific benefit of empty attention seeking behavior & shock value.


so taking some random character

There is no such thing as a random character in a narrative, all characters are specific characters. Iceman is no more random that Batwoman.

Der Schatten
05-04-2015, 10:57 PM
Not really. I mean if your going to take a strictly analytical view...

There's also zero people with high-powered exoskeletons, Norse gods prancing about the streets of New York, or mutants with kewl powerz but that fact is mysteriously forgotten when these discussions come up. Simple fact is, it's fiction. Kind of by definition. It's funny that "realism" and the real-world only come up when it's a weapon to decrease representation in geek-media, it's never used to delete impossible characters from the setting. Kid gets bit by a radioactive spider, that's perfectly okay. But Iceman's gay! Hell no, where's the representative statistical analysis of just how many LGBT people there are in the real world so we can have exactly that number in the comics.

Facepalm.


Fact is that representation is immaterial to my point...

Of course it is, because it completely undermines your "point".


There is no such thing as a random character in a narrative, all characters are specific characters. Iceman is no more random that Batwoman.

You're right. It's almost as if characters are designed by someone. Almost as if they're simply a collection of traits their creators or owners say they are. Sort of like how if the owners of the intellectual property that is commonly referred to as "Iceman" say that character's now gay, *presto* he's gay. If they say Batwoman's straight, *presto* she's straight. At least the owners/creators realize the need for representation, still waiting for the fans to grow up enough to get it. *sigh*

saint_matthew
05-04-2015, 11:05 PM
There's also zero people with high-powered exoskeletons, Norse gods prancing about the streets of New York, or mutants with kewl powerz but that fact is mysteriously forgotten when these discussions come up.

Ahem, citation from the very piece you just quoted: "I however wouldn't make that argument because it turns out the amount of people who wear long underwear & fight crime using super powers in the United States is 0%, which would kind of suggest that comics like all media aren't designed to represent census numbers."

:)


It's funny that "realism" and the real-world only come up when it's a weapon to decrease representation in geek-media,

LOL, you do realize you are actually agreeing with the points I made. I have this feeling you think you are disagreeing with some point I've made, but in reality you are actually just agreeing with me. Is it safe to assume you hit reply before you read the entire thing? ;)

Ares
05-05-2015, 05:13 AM
It's kind of weird and very meta in its own way, and I have absolutely no desire to offend anyone's sensibilities, but . . . does anyone else find it weird that there is support for changing an established character's sexuality in order to allegedly appeal to a broader market, when one thing the LGBT community has traditionally had to deal with is being forced to hide or 'change' their sexual preferences and identity in order to appease other people?

FuzzyBoots
05-05-2015, 05:41 AM
It's kind of weird and very meta in its own way, and I have absolutely no desire to offend anyone's sensibilities, but . . . does anyone else find it weird that there is support for changing an established character's sexuality in order to allegedly appeal to a broader market, when one thing the LGBT community has traditionally had to deal with is being forced to hide or 'change' their sexual preferences and identity in order to appease other people?

I've gotten into a similar debate on the Crystal Hall message boards. TG fiction is a weird place where the writers believe that conversion therapy to get people to accept the body that they have is a horrible torture thing, but magic or mutation forcing a person to accept changing sex is perfectly normal and a wonderful thing. I suppose a lot of it comes down to that whole "your freedom fighters are our terrorists" thing.

saint_matthew
05-05-2015, 05:51 AM
It's kind of weird and very meta in its own way, and I have absolutely no desire to offend anyone's sensibilities, but . . . does anyone else find it weird that there is support for changing an established character's sexuality in order to allegedly appeal to a broader market, when one thing the LGBT community has traditionally had to deal with is being forced to hide or 'change' their sexual preferences and identity in order to appease other people?

Kaboom!

Yeah that was the sound of you blowing my mind.

Kyle
05-05-2015, 06:12 AM
It's kind of weird and very meta in its own way, and I have absolutely no desire to offend anyone's sensibilities, but . . . does anyone else find it weird that there is support for changing an established character's sexuality in order to allegedly appeal to a broader market, when one thing the LGBT community has traditionally had to deal with is being forced to hide or 'change' their sexual preferences and identity in order to appease other people?

Not really, no.

I would find it weird and offensive if an out homosexual character suddenly became straight. However, a character that presents as straight becoming homosexual is a reflection of something that happens in real life. Handled well -- and we have yet to really see how it will be handled in the comics -- that could make for a perfectly valid story.

The difference is that straight is the default. The vast majority of people are straight, and there is societal pressure for LGBT peoples to, if not be, at least act straight. Of course that assumes that all straight people act one way and homosexual people another, and that's a gross oversimplification in and of itself.

Also, who specifically is Iceman's coming out supposed to appease? Sure, there have been fan theories for decades now, but I don't think there was any sort of campaign to force Marvel into making Bobby Drake gay.

savijmuhdrox
05-05-2015, 06:26 AM
I feel like Iceman's coming out wasn't meant to appease anyone in particular.. it was just meant to stir the pot and garner publicity, which to me is downright tasteless

And doing it right as Battleworld sets in and changes everything just makes it worse.. it was handled poorly..


when things settle down.. Marvel may want to consider doing right by their character and making a point to present a story that handles this subject well. If he's gonna be out, then let it be.. its not my cup of tea.. but doesn't mean it can't be part of a good story.. (which is my cup of tea)

okay. I just reread that last part.. and it all rhymes.. sorry.

Ares
05-05-2015, 06:30 AM
I'm also not sure about LGBT folks being horribly underrepresented in comics either. While I feel they could either use a few more new heroes or have the existing ones try to get more support, according to the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/07/15/what-percentage-of-the-u-s-population-is-gay-lesbian-or-bisexual/), roughly 95% of people in America identify as straight, with the remaining 5% of people being identified as gay, lesbian, bi and transgender. Given superheroes themselves are an incredible minority (there's usually less than 100 active American superheroes at any one time), the 5 to 10 LGBT heroes in either company would proportionately be about right. If people want their numbers to increase tho, I'd say it'd be better served creating new characters and promoting them well, rather than either making an established character suddenly come out of the closet or introduce a legacy character from an existing hero who is basically the old character with a gender/race/sexuality change.

Ares
05-05-2015, 06:33 AM
I feel like Iceman's coming out wasn't meant to appease anyone in particular.. it was just meant to stir the pot and garner publicity, which to me is downright tasteless

And doing it right as Battleworld sets in and changes everything just makes it worse.. it was handled poorly..


when things settle down.. Marvel may want to consider doing right by their character and making a point to present a story that handles this subject well. If he's gonna be out, then let it be.. its not my cup of tea.. but doesn't mean it can't be part of a good story.. (which is my cup of tea)

okay. I just reread that last part.. and it all rhymes.. sorry.

As Vitruvius says: https://youtu.be/boHZctqRj1s?t=84

FuzzyBoots
05-05-2015, 06:36 AM
At that, I still half think this is going to turn into a "Young Jean has no telepathic ethics" storyline and it will turn out that she was either lying about the "no bisexual" bit or is outright making Bobby's mind up for him.

Ares
05-05-2015, 06:40 AM
At that, I still half think this is going to turn into a "Young Jean has no telepathic ethics" storyline and it will turn out that she was either lying about the "no bisexual" bit or is outright making Bobby's mind up for him.

I certainly hope so. Because really, Bobby was very quick to forgive someone who went into his head without his permission and who didn't get out after he repeatedly told her to.

Der Schatten
05-05-2015, 06:48 AM
Ahem, citation from the very piece you just quoted: "I however wouldn't make that argument because it turns out the amount of people who wear long underwear & fight crime using super powers in the United States is 0%, which would kind of suggest that comics like all media aren't designed to represent census numbers."

LOL, you do realize you are actually agreeing with the points I made. I have this feeling you think you are disagreeing with some point I've made, but in reality you are actually just agreeing with me. Is it safe to assume you hit reply before you read the entire thing? ;)

No, because the argument is so ridiculously common that I glazed over the rest of your post.

Are you complaining about there being more representation for LGBTs in comics? Then you're on the wrong side of the argument, no matter what the specifics of your argument are.

Hey, look, even after we just did this it still pops up a few posts later...


I'm also not sure about LGBT folks being horribly underrepresented in comics either. While I feel they could either use a few more new heroes or have the existing ones try to get more support, according to the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/07/15/what-percentage-of-the-u-s-population-is-gay-lesbian-or-bisexual/), roughly 95% of people in America identify as straight, with the remaining 5% of people being identified as gay, lesbian, bi and transgender. Given superheroes themselves are an incredible minority (there's usually less than 100 active American superheroes at any one time), the 5 to 10 LGBT heroes in either company would proportionately be about right. If people want their numbers to increase tho, I'd say it'd be better served creating new characters and promoting them well, rather than either making an established character suddenly come out of the closet or introduce a legacy character from an existing hero who is basically the old character with a gender/race/sexuality change.

Ares
05-05-2015, 06:58 AM
Not really, no.

I would find it weird and offensive if an out homosexual character suddenly became straight. However, a character that presents as straight becoming homosexual is a reflection of something that happens in real life. Handled well -- and we have yet to really see how it will be handled in the comics -- that could make for a perfectly valid story.

The difference is that straight is the default. The vast majority of people are straight, and there is societal pressure for LGBT peoples to, if not be, at least act straight. Of course that assumes that all straight people act one way and homosexual people another, and that's a gross oversimplification in and of itself.

Also, who specifically is Iceman's coming out supposed to appease? Sure, there have been fan theories for decades now, but I don't think there was any sort of campaign to force Marvel into making Bobby Drake gay.

And if it had been any set up over Bobby's 50+ year history that he was gay and in the closet, outside of fan speculation, you would have a case for it. But everything over that history indicates that Bobby was a straight male who had the same issues with a stable relationship as every comics character not named Reed and Sue Richards. As for who it's meant to appease, I'd say those fans that you mentioned speculating about Bobby being gay, as well as the SJW's that have been coming down on comics lately. Like savijmuhdrox said, this is likely a means to grab attention and stir up controversy while also appearing progressive.

It seems like it's ultimately okay because it's a straight white male coming out as gay completely out of the blue in contrast to 50 years of history and thought bubbles that never suggested otherwise, rather than it being looked at as a character whose sexuality is being changed to appeal to certain groups. And it does it worse by involving someone violating his personal thoughts and basically downplaying the status of bisexuals as their own orientation. I don't view this the same way as, say, Willow from Buffy going "Hey, gay now", because her creator had sole control over her and I could see that as being an instance of a young teenage girl unsure about her sexuality figuring out what she liked when she went to college after having existed as a character for only 5 years.

Ares
05-05-2015, 07:03 AM
No, because the argument is so ridiculously common that I glazed over the rest of your post.

Are you complaining about there being more representation for LGBTs in comics? Then you're on the wrong side of the argument, no matter what the specifics of your argument are.

Hey, look, even after we just did this it still pops up a few posts later...

I'm certainly not. I don't believe matthew is either.

Kyle
05-05-2015, 07:11 AM
And if it had been any set up over Bobby's 50+ year history that he was gay and in the closet, outside of fan speculation, you would have a case for it. But everything over that history indicates that Bobby was a straight male who had the same issues with a stable relationship as every comics character not named Reed and Sue Richards.

http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u389/Magniflorious/UXMbobbyjean01.jpg

saint_matthew
05-05-2015, 07:18 AM
No, because the argument is so ridiculously common that I glazed over the rest of your post.

Right, so you didn't read what was written & assumed you already knew, then shadow boxed your own assumption? Heck, you still haven't read it. Go back and read the post in question from start to finish, as I'm not going to bother typing more answers to you if you cannot be bothered reading the ones that have already been written.

Ares
05-05-2015, 07:39 AM
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u389/Magniflorious/UXMbobbyjean01.jpg

. . . . you know, it's funny you chose that instance to reference, because in a lot of ways it's the exact antithesis of the scene that started this thread, since it involves Jean talking about how she DOESN'T rear people's minds.

http://imageshack.com/a/img538/1180/un4JXU.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img540/9167/3DKyFZ.jpg

So what we have here is Bobby awkwardly asking Jean if she knows that the reason he came along to shop with her was because he wanted her to look into his mind and see if Emma Frost was still in there, as she had taken up residence in his head a little earlier in that storyline. Jean comments to Bobby that she doesn't just read the minds of people around her, because that would drive her nuts and she respects their privacy. Bobby is awkwardly asking his friend to do something very personal to help him out. The scene has nothing to do with sexuality unless you take it out of context.

Now, to be fair to younger Jean, older Jean here does mention that she wasn't ready for her telepathic abilities at her younger age since she had felt a friend 'die' with them, so it does go some ways towards cutting younger Jean a little slack. At the same time, when Xavier did that to Jean, she was something like 10. A 15-16 year old Jean should know better.

Kyle
05-05-2015, 07:45 AM
Speaking of Emma having been in Bobby's head....

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/axemurderersmurf/icemanemma_zpsoj43h48j.jpg

FuzzyBoots
05-05-2015, 08:14 AM
o_- I really hope that the actual comics don't try to go down the route of "No, really, Young Jean is right. Look at all of these stereotypical habits he has". That kind of storyline always seemed like it was the worst of all possible worlds, like saying, "No, wait, of course you have black heritage. Look at how you've always loved fried chicken and had difficulty on English tests."

Ares
05-05-2015, 08:36 AM
Speaking of Emma having been in Bobby's head....

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/axemurderersmurf/icemanemma_zpsoj43h48j.jpg

And for anyone interested in the actual context of the image:

http://imageshack.com/a/img661/8840/0HAWTe.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img537/755/K0nSUl.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img540/3711/e8cymt.jpg

Ares
05-05-2015, 08:37 AM
http://imageshack.com/a/img905/6546/1LDkcB.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img661/2805/NhRukb.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img901/3406/jecWcU.jpg

Ares
05-05-2015, 08:42 AM
So lets see . . . Emma makes a crack about Bobby being an interior decorator because he iced up her office in order to intimidate her. This implies to some people that Bobby is gay, apparently. Meanwhile, he states point blank later that he was in love with his girlfriend, that she loved him, and that it was his fault for letting the relationship break down, which even Emma acknowledges. And when Bobby comments on what the visions Emma is conjuring are trying to do, in order, it is Bullied (His father), Seduced (Opal), Distracted (Beast). You think if there was going to be any homoerotic bits, they would have used Beast there.

Instead I'm seeing people grasping at straws because Emma implied that Bobby might be into interior decorating.

You know, Judd Winick is a big advocate of LGBT rights and has created a number of gay, lesbian and bi-sexual characters in his books. Lets hear his opinion on someone judging a person's sexuality based on their job or appearance.

http://imageshack.com/a/img537/5766/gWzcD6.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img673/4600/005QLi.jpg

Der Schatten
05-05-2015, 08:58 AM
This was posted:


Nobody's complaining about young-iceman being gay, Kyle.

To which you replied:


I do.

That right there is all I'll ever need to know about your position. End of. More LGBT representation in comics is good, you're arguing against it, therefore you're wrong.

FuzzyBoots
05-05-2015, 09:17 AM
That right there is all I'll ever need to know about your position. End of. More LGBT representation in comics is good, you're arguing against it, therefore you're wrong.

Would it have killed you to include the entire quote?

I do. I have the same problem with it that I would have if DC today declared that Batwoman was now a raging Heterosexual.

So you're saying that saint_matthew arguing that suddenly changing the sexuality of characters contrary to their past history is equivalent to arguing against LGBT representation? Because that sounds like where your logic is going. Most of the argument here is about how there was no need to rewrite history, especially in a clumsy manner, when there were so many much more logical choices.

Kyle
05-05-2015, 09:22 AM
o_- I really hope that the actual comics don't try to go down the route of "No, really, Young Jean is right. Look at all of these stereotypical habits he has". That kind of storyline always seemed like it was the worst of all possible worlds, like saying, "No, wait, of course you have black heritage. Look at how you've always loved fried chicken and had difficulty on English tests."

Of course that won't happen. Because it's not going to happen in a early-to-mid 90s comic written by Scott Lobdell and taken out of context by me because I was bored waiting to run an errand and don't respect the opinion of anyone still railing against more depictions of under-represented peoples in media.

But it doesn't matter how Marvel actually goes about handling it, because the people who are opposed to Iceman being gay -- regardless of how similarly his story mirrors that of some real life experiences of people lived as closeted homosexuals -- are going to be opposed to Iceman being gay no matter what. Jack Kirby could literally descend from from the afterlife, carried aloft by Celestials, and declare through cigar clenching teeth, "Of course Iceman's gay ya mugs! Course, Stan din't mention that on the stained cocktail napkin he scribbled to plot o' the first issue on, but I definitely included that in the subtext of the issues I drew! What are ya, blind?" before returning to the Source Wall to create a hundred new superheroes out of an idea he had before breakfast, and everyone objecting to the change would only whine louder about political correctness run amok and social justice warriors forcing everyone to conform to their world view.

Kyle
05-05-2015, 09:25 AM
Instead I'm seeing people grasping at straws because Emma implied that Bobby might be into interior decorating.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/109146/3659918-2132552740-North.jpg

FuzzyBoots
05-05-2015, 09:33 AM
Of course that won't happen. Because it's not going to happen in a early-to-mid 90s comic written by Scott Lobdell and taken out of context by me because I was bored waiting to run an errand and don't respect the opinion of anyone still railing against more depictions of under-represented peoples in media.

I'm sorry. That did look like I was attacking your choice of panels. I've seen that one among a few others used to make a case that Iceman's been closeted the whole time and in my mind, I found myself imagining one of the writers saying, "Hey, you know what, maybe the Internet has a good idea here" and running with it.

And you're right. Some people won't accept it no matter what. That said, I feel like there are some people who are accepting it no matter what as well. I'm not a comics scholar, so I only have what I've seen from others, but my take at this point is that, somewhere along the lines, the writers started joking about how Bobby was less than a stereotypically manly man and it continued on for years much like Power Girl's bosom growing from issue to issue. I still feel this latest bit by Bendis makes about as much sense as someone noting that Power Girl's breasts had been growing over the years and deciding that it's now canon that use of her powers leads to breast growth.

Ares
05-05-2015, 09:37 AM
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/109146/3659918-2132552740-North.jpg

http://majorspoilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/NS4.jpg

Ares
05-05-2015, 10:08 AM
I also think we're getting into a weird position where people are assuming that folks that are unhappy with this change to Iceman don't like it because the anti-crowd are against there being more LGBT characters in comics. I'm pretty sure that for at least most of the folks here that isn't the case.

'Not liking Bobby's orientation being changed' and 'Wanting more LGBT characters' are not mutually exclusive positions, whatever anyone might think. The issues I and a few others have I think are as follows:

1) Bobby has traditionally been a heterosexual male with no implications of homosexuality or bisexuality, even with a few instances outright saying the opposite. The change comes out of nowhere, with no set up, seemingly purely for shock value.

2) The incident that handles his 'coming out' does so very poorly and ham-fistedly, and states that 'everyone is bi, but Bobby is still mostly gay', which is just an incredibly insensitive.

3) Jean outs Bobby by reading his mind without his permission, and even after he tells her to stop. As the Fuzzy one states, she might even be projecting that orientation onto him.

Most people seem to be indifferent about the change, but rally against people who dislike the change on the grounds that there's an anti-LGBT sentiment to the dislike. Again, I don't think that's the case. Like matthew said, I'd be just as opposed to Batwoman suddenly deciding she was straight, or Superman suddenly deciding that killing is okay, Batman being revealed to be a pedophile, or any other radical change to a character's personality that contradicts most of their established identity.

Most of the positive I've heard about this is "well, it gives us more LGBT characters in comics", to which I say: so what? More of anything in a particular medium is not in and of itself a good thing. It's the implementation and craftsmanship that goes into said change that matters. Saying that it's good solely because it gives us another gay character sounds increasingly like an agenda rather than any care about the characters, their history and portrayal. It's just one more number in the LGBT side and that's what counts.

I'm all for more LGBT characters in comics. I just don't think a straight character should be turned gay as part of some kind of quota.

Kyle
05-05-2015, 10:23 AM
I'm sorry. That did look like I was attacking your choice of panels.
No need to apologize! I didn't assume that at all.

Even if I did, you'd have been right to do so. As I said, I'm choosing panels that are taken out of context -- well, less so with Northstar and his notoriously bad gaydar up there -- because I honestly think there's no point in discussing the subject, and I'm just having fun tweaking the noses of the opposition. I'm not about to convince anyone that Iceman being gay is a perfectly valid story choice, and there certainly isn't a chance that anyone is going to convince me that more representation for under represented peoples in comics is a bad thing. Also, I'm well aware I should just walk away, but sometimes I do dumb things.


And you're right. Some people won't accept it no matter what. That said, I feel like there are some people who are accepting it no matter what as well.
Why not accept it? Marvel has already made their position clear. Iceman is gay, and he will still be gay going forward, post Secret Wars. Not accepting the change is pointless. Several previous X-Men writers have come out in support of the change. The current X-Offices are on board. Not accepting the change is like not accepting evolution or global warming.

Also, I find it hilarious that people can accept that a fictional character can literally transform his body into frozen water molecules, and displace his conciousness into ice constructs created by that power, but can't accept that same character might be a closeted homosexual, which is a real life thing that happens to real life human beings in real life.

Here let's consider a new scenario: One of the complaints is that Marvel should stop changing their characters to accommodate the vast, nefarious SJW agenda, and should just create new characters and see if they fail or succeed on their own, right? So, Marvel decides, "You know what's a story we haven't told before which might speak to some of our readers and maybe even help some young people come to terms with who they are? We haven't told a story about a closeted homosexual coming-out and coming to terms with who they are and their sexual identity." So Marvel creates a brand new character, who is closeted from the outset. To tell the story, they need to have that character present as straight, and they need to have that character catch on and build a fanbase -- which is luck of the draw at best -- to justify continuing to publish their stories long enough so that after a few years they can have the issue where the character comes out. And what would happen?

The exact same people who are complaining about Iceman coming-out would complain about the new character, for the exact same reasons.

So why not skip all that and just go with a somewhat popular, already established character?

Kyle
05-05-2015, 10:32 AM
1) Bobby has traditionally been a heterosexual male

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/axemurderersmurf/icemanlorna_zpspwdagmmm.jpg

(Ugh, Chuck Austen and Philip Tan. I sincerely apologize to everyone.)

Ares
05-05-2015, 10:52 AM
(Ugh, Chuck Austen and Philip Tan. I sincerely apologize to everyone.)

As well you should. Chuck Austen is already a blight on comics, you combine him with that art and . . . well, you might be one step closer to finding the Anti-Life Equation.

Seriously Kyle, what are you even doing at this point with the pictures even you admit are out of context? It does nothing to disprove what you quoted me as saying. You might as well post up the Family Guy bit about Iceman being gay, go whole hog.

Kyle
05-05-2015, 11:18 AM
Seriously Kyle, what are you even doing at this point with the pictures even you admit are out of context?

Entertaining myself, mostly. Although that last one is less out-of-context and more should-be-struck-from-existence. If there was ever an argument for completely rebooting the Marvel Universe, Chuck Austen's tenure as writer on UNCANNY and THE AVENGERS has got to be it. Though Jason Aaron did turn Azazel into a pirate captain in hell, and he and Nightcrawler had a big swashbuckling fight with demons as pirate crew, so I suppose that even the rankest manure can become fertilizer for the most beautiful garden.

Anyways! I could directly address your three points directly, but honestly, would there be any point? Are you open to the idea that maybe Iceman being gay isn't a terrible thing, or are you intractable in your position?

Because, if you want to talk about taking things out of context, I kinda feel everyone harping on the "everyone is bi" line is being wilfully obtuse. Jean was obviously -- at least to my mind -- referring to the fact that sexuality isn't so much a binary orientation but more of a spectrum, and calling out Bobby for trying to obfuscate matters by bargaining that maybe he was bi.

I'd agree that the scene could have been written better. That said I've read gay commenters who really liked it and identified with it, and some who didn't like it at all. And I've read bi commenters who really liked it and identified with it -- include the essay published on Playboy that I linked somewhere up thread -- and some who didn't like it at all. You can't please everyone.

But really why continue to harp on something that is, for the foreseeable future now, set in stone? How are you accomplishing anything more than I am by posting random, out of context panels?


I'd be just as opposed to Batwoman suddenly deciding she was straight, or Superman suddenly deciding that killing is okay, Batman being revealed to be a pedophile

http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/comicsalliance.com/files/2013/06/mos02.jpg

https://guynonymous.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/batman_robin_leather_thong.jpg

FuzzyBoots
05-05-2015, 11:34 AM
*shrug* At this point, I'd be good to drop the discussion until they deal further with it. If it does stick, especially if they never elaborate further on the "No, your future self isn't gay, but you are", I'll probably just shrug and sigh, much like when they established that Angel and Nightcrawler were descendants of actual angels and devils. I personally think it's more likely that they'll wind up quietly dropping it (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/category/abandoned-an%E2%80%99-forsaked/) and then some bright writer in the future will write something that makes it all make sense.

Personally, I think the way they scripted it really does set things up for "Jean made Bobby's mind up for him", but it's that whole "death of the author" thing for you. Even if an author draws all of his cigars as barely-disguised phalluses, he's always free to say, "Nope, just cigars. And yes, I do love my mother. Why do you ask?" Bendis can claim his interpretation of the scene, but it was either done clumsily, or someone is outright making things ambiguous (I don't know the art talents involved, but I wouldn't put it past the pencilers or inkers to have added that aspect in, depending on their point of view. Again, far from the first time such things have happened).

I do think we've probably covered all of the bases that we can here. Now, we just see how competently Marvel handles the storyline.

Der Schatten
05-05-2015, 11:55 AM
I also think we're getting into a weird position where people are assuming that folks that are unhappy with this change to Iceman don't like it because the anti-crowd are against there being more LGBT characters in comics. I'm pretty sure that for at least most of the folks here that isn't the case.

'Not liking Bobby's orientation being changed' and 'Wanting more LGBT characters' are not mutually exclusive positions, whatever anyone might think.

No, they're not. But arguing against making an established character LGBT includes the "happy accident" of not increasing the representation of LGBT. So despite the "different intent" it also happens to have the identical result.


1) Bobby has traditionally been a heterosexual male with no implications of homosexuality or bisexuality, even with a few instances outright saying the opposite. The change comes out of nowhere, with no set up, seemingly purely for shock value.

Looking at even a handful of the pictures posted here shows that's simply not the case. Iceman has almost always been ambiguous or something of a mystery. The fans over the years have noticed these "hints" from the writers and artists. This is no sudden reveal if you've been paying attention to the character. It's confirmation of a long-held theory by fans.


2) The incident that handles his 'coming out' does so very poorly and ham-fistedly, and states that 'everyone is bi, but Bobby is still mostly gay', which is just an incredibly insensitive.

3) Jean outs Bobby by reading his mind without his permission, and even after he tells her to stop. As the Fuzzy one states, she might even be projecting that orientation onto him.

That I agree with. It's rather shitty that Jean decided it was up to her to Out her friend like that. Telepathy or no.


Most people seem to be indifferent about the change, but rally against people who dislike the change on the grounds that there's an anti-LGBT sentiment to the dislike. Again, I don't think that's the case. Like matthew said, I'd be just as opposed to Batwoman suddenly deciding she was straight, or Superman suddenly deciding that killing is okay, Batman being revealed to be a pedophile, or any other radical change to a character's personality that contradicts most of their established identity.

It's because the arguments are all-but indistinguishable. "I don't want Bobby to be gay" sounds a whole lot like "I don't want gay characters". If not, why not? It's not a huge retcon. People claim it is, but it simply isn't. See this thread full of panels from comics laying out the history of the character's ambiguity. If a reader honestly thinks that "but he dated a woman" means the character's straight, that's laughably naive in a rather unflattering way.


Most of the positive I've heard about this is "well, it gives us more LGBT characters in comics", to which I say: so what? More of anything in a particular medium is not in and of itself a good thing.

You'd be wrong, again. More representation is a good thing. Positive, non-villainous portrayals of LGBT characters is a good thing. Yet you're arguing against it.


It's the implementation and craftsmanship that goes into said change that matters. Saying that it's good solely because it gives us another gay character sounds increasingly like an agenda rather than any care about the characters, their history and portrayal. It's just one more number in the LGBT side and that's what counts.

Again, incorrect premise. It's not a change. It's a reveal. Open your eyes to the dozens of pictures posted here. It's clear he's been ambiguously portrayed for years. You just don't want to see it. Constantly arguing and gnashing teeth about keeping LGBT characters out of comics sounds an awful lot like an agenda rather than any care about the characters.


I'm all for more LGBT characters in comics. I just don't think a straight character should be turned gay as part of some kind of quota.

Just not in your backyard. But honestly, your premise is simply wrong. He was never "straight", that was the assumption because he's been portrayed ambiguously for years. Again, as the posted panels have shown. This is confirmation of a long-held fan theory, not a retcon. There's no quota either. There's no set number of characters that need to be LGBT. There needs to be more, simple as that. And again, the statistical analysis of the real-world population is laughable at best.

ghostman76
05-05-2015, 01:38 PM
No need to apologize! I didn't assume that at all.

Even if I did, you'd have been right to do so. As I said, I'm choosing panels that are taken out of context -- well, less so with Northstar and his notoriously bad gaydar up there -- because I honestly think there's no point in discussing the subject, and I'm just having fun tweaking the noses of the opposition. I'm not about to convince anyone that Iceman being gay is a perfectly valid story choice, and there certainly isn't a chance that anyone is going to convince me that more representation for under represented peoples in comics is a bad thing. Also, I'm well aware I should just walk away, but sometimes I do dumb things.


Why not accept it? Marvel has already made their position clear. Iceman is gay, and he will still be gay going forward, post Secret Wars. Not accepting the change is pointless. Several previous X-Men writers have come out in support of the change. The current X-Offices are on board. Not accepting the change is like not accepting evolution or global warming.

Also, I find it hilarious that people can accept that a fictional character can literally transform his body into frozen water molecules, and displace his conciousness into ice constructs created by that power, but can't accept that same character might be a closeted homosexual, which is a real life thing that happens to real life human beings in real life.

Here let's consider a new scenario: One of the complaints is that Marvel should stop changing their characters to accommodate the vast, nefarious SJW agenda, and should just create new characters and see if they fail or succeed on their own, right? So, Marvel decides, "You know what's a story we haven't told before which might speak to some of our readers and maybe even help some young people come to terms with who they are? We haven't told a story about a closeted homosexual coming-out and coming to terms with who they are and their sexual identity." So Marvel creates a brand new character, who is closeted from the outset. To tell the story, they need to have that character present as straight, and they need to have that character catch on and build a fanbase -- which is luck of the draw at best -- to justify continuing to publish their stories long enough so that after a few years they can have the issue where the character comes out. And what would happen?

The exact same people who are complaining about Iceman coming-out would complain about the new character, for the exact same reasons.

So why not skip all that and just go with a somewhat popular, already established character?

So....so much "win" in this post. It pretty much sums up how I feel about this discussion, including my desire to no longer participate in it. To me, we've reached the point of discussing in circles. Until at the very least, Marvel further reveals how they move this storyline forward there is really nothing more to discuss.

Ares
05-05-2015, 04:12 PM
*shrug* At this point, I'd be good to drop the discussion until they deal further with it. If it does stick, especially if they never elaborate further on the "No, your future self isn't gay, but you are", I'll probably just shrug and sigh, much like when they established that Angel and Nightcrawler were descendants of actual angels and devils. I personally think it's more likely that they'll wind up quietly dropping it (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/category/abandoned-an%E2%80%99-forsaked/) and then some bright writer in the future will write something that makes it all make sense.

Personally, I think the way they scripted it really does set things up for "Jean made Bobby's mind up for him", but it's that whole "death of the author" thing for you. Even if an author draws all of his cigars as barely-disguised phalluses, he's always free to say, "Nope, just cigars. And yes, I do love my mother. Why do you ask?" Bendis can claim his interpretation of the scene, but it was either done clumsily, or someone is outright making things ambiguous (I don't know the art talents involved, but I wouldn't put it past the pencilers or inkers to have added that aspect in, depending on their point of view. Again, far from the first time such things have happened).

I do think we've probably covered all of the bases that we can here. Now, we just see how competently Marvel handles the storyline.

I'm inclined to agree. As you and others have said, we've discussed and speculated to the point that we can basically only see where Marvel goes from here. It's also kind of reached that point where it's not really a debate anymore. Once people start deciding your opinion for you, there's not much point in talking further. Ah well, we'll just have to see how things go from here.

Der Schatten
05-05-2015, 04:35 PM
No need to apologize! I didn't assume that at all.

Even if I did, you'd have been right to do so. As I said, I'm choosing panels that are taken out of context -- well, less so with Northstar and his notoriously bad gaydar up there -- because I honestly think there's no point in discussing the subject, and I'm just having fun tweaking the noses of the opposition. I'm not about to convince anyone that Iceman being gay is a perfectly valid story choice, and there certainly isn't a chance that anyone is going to convince me that more representation for under represented peoples in comics is a bad thing. Also, I'm well aware I should just walk away, but sometimes I do dumb things.


Why not accept it? Marvel has already made their position clear. Iceman is gay, and he will still be gay going forward, post Secret Wars. Not accepting the change is pointless. Several previous X-Men writers have come out in support of the change. The current X-Offices are on board. Not accepting the change is like not accepting evolution or global warming.

Also, I find it hilarious that people can accept that a fictional character can literally transform his body into frozen water molecules, and displace his conciousness into ice constructs created by that power, but can't accept that same character might be a closeted homosexual, which is a real life thing that happens to real life human beings in real life.

Here let's consider a new scenario: One of the complaints is that Marvel should stop changing their characters to accommodate the vast, nefarious SJW agenda, and should just create new characters and see if they fail or succeed on their own, right? So, Marvel decides, "You know what's a story we haven't told before which might speak to some of our readers and maybe even help some young people come to terms with who they are? We haven't told a story about a closeted homosexual coming-out and coming to terms with who they are and their sexual identity." So Marvel creates a brand new character, who is closeted from the outset. To tell the story, they need to have that character present as straight, and they need to have that character catch on and build a fanbase -- which is luck of the draw at best -- to justify continuing to publish their stories long enough so that after a few years they can have the issue where the character comes out. And what would happen?

The exact same people who are complaining about Iceman coming-out would complain about the new character, for the exact same reasons.

So why not skip all that and just go with a somewhat popular, already established character?

Punching for justice, indeed.

savijmuhdrox
05-05-2015, 08:14 PM
Just wanted to say thanks to Kyle for that Batman panel.

Teeth marks in the thong indeed.

Yeoman
05-05-2015, 09:21 PM
As well you should. Chuck Austen is already a blight on comics, you combine him with that art and . . . well, you might be one step closer to finding the Anti-Life Equation.

Hey, Sammy the Squid-boy was awesome. I mean, yeah, the rest of his run was Garbage. The Draco is one of the worst X0men arcs I've ever seen. And it's still better than his superman run with Racist Kryptonian Snuff Rapists.

saint_matthew
05-06-2015, 12:23 AM
And it's still better than his superman run with Racist Kryptonian Snuff Rapists.

Really? I liked that villain, he was everything you want out of a Superman villain. His physical equal, strong motivation before getting powers made worse by the inclusion of powers, deceptively charismatic & completely morally detestable..... Kind of like Intercessor, another villain by Austen.

Kyle
05-06-2015, 06:28 AM
Personally, I think the way they scripted it really does set things up for "Jean made Bobby's mind up for him"

I imagine the likelihood of that being the case, is somewhat less than a snowball's chance in hell.

Despite all the furor amongst certain elements of the comics reading public over Marvel's recent attempts to infuse some diversity into their line-up, the fact of the matter is that comics sales are not only up over the past few years, but Marvel's market share has also increased. Obviously some aspect of their publishing strategy is working. And it's not just fans brought in by the movies -- something which all anecdotal evidence would point to not actually happening -- because MS. MARVEL is the best example of this growth. Common wisdom would say there's no way MS. MARVEL should have an audience. The titular character is a new creation, female, and a person of colour. Those are not attributes which have traditionally performed well on comics shelves. Yet MS. MARVEL #1 was the first Marvel title to get seven printings.

Unfortunately Marvel keeps their digital sales figures pretty close to the vest, but back in November, the book's editor claimed that MS. MARVEL was Marvel's top digital seller. Of course that was before the Star Wars books, so who knows now. Though in March, Comixology did run a buy one get one sale, and released the top ten sellers from that. Four of the top ten were the most recent issues of MS. MARVEL.

The numbers would seem to suggest that Marvel's recent push to diversify are finding an audience.

And while there is suddenly a really surprisingly large number of dedicated Iceman fans who are very, very invested in how important it is that he only ever engage in romantic relationships with women, Bobby Drake being revealed to be homosexual has gotten a lot of positive press. Marvel is run by smart people, and they can see which way the wind is blowing. You can call it crass tokenism, diversity gone to far, pandering -- though it's always interesting how no one ever complains of pandering when they're the ones being pandered to -- or whatever you like, but Marvel has a financial stake in developing their IP and appealing to the widest audience possible. They are not going to risk the unholy shitstorm of backlash that would be unleashed if they were to suddenly pull the rug out from under everyone and declare, "Aha! We tricked you all! Iceman was straight the whole time! Jean was just getting caught up on all the late 90s/early aughts sitcoms she missed by being pulled forward in time, and she decided she really wanted a gay best friend! (But not the new Morph, cause he's kind of a crappy character) Now here's a six issue arc that's just Bobby Drake travelling around to every superteam we have, and slayin' all that puss, 'cause he's a super awesome, super straight, super stud!"

savijmuhdrox
05-06-2015, 06:48 AM
...Bobby Drake travelling around to every superteam we have, and slayin' all that puss, 'cause he's a super awesome, super straight, super stud!"

You are on a roll man.

You've won 'one internet' for today, and I haven't even finished my coffee.. don't spend it all in one place... if you dare.

savijmuhdrox
05-06-2015, 06:50 AM
Hey, Sammy the Squid-boy was awesome. I mean, yeah, the rest of his run was Garbage. The Draco is one of the worst X0men arcs I've ever seen. And it's still better than his superman run with Racist Kryptonian Snuff Rapists.

[narrows eyes]

Is someone hating on Sammy the Squid-Boy round these parts???

It was a legitimate plot thread to get Juggernaut back to being the angry, rage machine we all know and love.. and it just kind farted out in a whimper.. (which is the same thing that happens when I eat calamari, strangely enough)

FuzzyBoots
05-06-2015, 08:07 AM
They are not going to risk the unholy shitstorm of backlash that would be unleashed if they were to suddenly pull the rug out from under everyone and declare, "Aha! We tricked you all! Iceman was straight the whole time! Jean was just getting caught up on all the late 90s/early aughts sitcoms she missed by being pulled forward in time, and she decided she really wanted a gay best friend! (But not the new Morph, cause he's kind of a crappy character) Now here's a six issue arc that's just Bobby Drake travelling around to every superteam we have, and slayin' all that puss, 'cause he's a super awesome, super straight, super stud!"
You're absolutely right. That's be a really dumb plot development. I'll admit that I wasn't thinking of that sort of extreme but more along the lines of what Bobby himself suggested, bisexuality. One of the theories I've seen for why older Bobby would be completely straight is that, somewhere along the lines, a telepath, whether Xavier or someone else, "helped" him by giving him a mental adjustment, including theories that it was Bobby himself who made that suggestion. Similarly, Jean wouldn't so much be going "Oh, let's make this straight guy gay", but more pruning his interests, possibly even unconsciously because she feel threatened by the sexual nature of his thoughts. *shrug* And, like I said, it could be the choice of the artists that made it look that way. Or it could be I'm trying to read too much into the limited emotional palette of comics.

Meh, ultimately, we'll see where it all goes.

Jabroniville
06-13-2015, 01:00 AM
FINALLY got through my All-New X-Mens enough to read the issue. I didn't hate it.

* Teen Jean has already shown a willingness to read other people's minds, and problems with even turning it off. It's actually been discussed as a real character flaw of hers. And its likely she read that in Bobby earlier, when she was REALLY delving into people's minds (that's when she realized that Teen Hank loved her).

* They didn't retcon Bobby as being gay, as they even point out that Adult Bobby is straight. So they even left that as a big question, like a "WTF?" sort of thing. Might be answered later. Maybe Time Travel turned Teen Bobby gay :).

* Is it possible that Iceman has been closeted this whole time? Possibly. Would probably be barely in the top ten most-outlandish things that've happened to the guy. When they joke that all of his dating life has been a disaster (I found the "and how (Kitty) has left the planet" joke cute- it's insensitive, which is WHY it's funny), it's an interesting point, as that's been a "signifier" for other gay characters (like when John Byrne realized that Northstar "had been gay all along" when writing him; or when a writer made Obsidian gay and justified it with that exact point). Now... he's a BIT old to suddenly be realizing his homosexuality- usually people are a bit younger than his "Slightly Younger Than Peter Parker" age when they discover that they prefer the ween. Could still happen, I guess. But again- they say flat-out that Adult Iceman is straight, and that they're not sure what's going on there.

* Now if Adult Iceman WAS gay... then at least he'd have ANOTHER kind of story to tell besides "I need to stop f**king around and grow up and match my potential", which is a story that gets told EVERY FIVE FREAKING YEARS for the guy.

* Maybe Secret Wars will have a "Soft Reboot" Iceman that is totes gay, and this is the "baby steps" towards establishing that. Who the hell knows?

* And we all know why there weren't gay superheroes until the 1980s, and this has left the odd situation of all the gay characters been newbie teen heroes. Being newbie teen heroes means fewer and fewer people give a crap. And God knows we need someone besides the two Young Avengers kids to hold that flag (if for no other reason than to prevent the contractual obligations of the two characters to point out that they're gay and in love in EVERY NON-YOUNG AVENGERS ISSUE THEY FEATURE IN). So maybe having one of the Sixties Heroes be gay would be a good thing. Though of course if you wanted to try THAT, there's better choices in terms of star power... which probably makes Bobby one of the "safe" picks. Better than people who've spent years wrapped up in romantic entanglements of various types- Bobby's had a series of shorter-lived relationships and is easier to pass off.

* I found most of the dialogue kind of cute (and keep in mind I'm not a Bendis fan). The "Maybe I'm bi." "They say everyone is" bit is not offensive at all to me- they're teen characters joking around, and yes, some people DO think everyone is a bit bi (the Kinsey Scale allows for a bit variance in the middle). Jean's not really being entirely serious, anyways. I try not to read too much into things that are just casual dialogue.

* Though if you wanted to turn established characters gay, there is, y'know, EVERY FEMALE X-MAN who was active during the Claremont years. You'd need to read maybe one issue of any book before you could come to that conclusion :). Highest profile one would naturally be Storm.

And, as always, my eternal rule is "Never get pissed off at the START of a storyline". In comics, ANYTHING could happen from there.

danelsan
06-13-2015, 01:29 PM
I still reserve the right to be pissed if they use the story to imply (and downright angry if they use it to explicitly state) that one could stop being gay by choice.

badpenny
06-13-2015, 04:09 PM
Harley & Ivy are OFFICIAL! (http://kotaku.com/dc-comics-harley-quinn-poison-ivy-are-girlfriends-w-1711038615)

danelsan
06-13-2015, 04:31 PM
"Like everybody says about you and Supergirl?" Hahaha. That looks like a fun comic. Is that from the old Batman Adventures comic based on the 90's cartoon?

badpenny
06-13-2015, 05:50 PM
That's Batgirl Adventures but I don't know the era.

saint_matthew
06-13-2015, 06:11 PM
Harley & Ivy are OFFICIAL! (http://kotaku.com/dc-comics-harley-quinn-poison-ivy-are-girlfriends-w-1711038615)

Oh I thought that was always official, ever since Gotham City Sirens at least. Must just have been official in my smutty mind.

Charles Phipps
06-14-2015, 09:07 AM
Oh I thought that was always official, ever since Gotham City Sirens at least. Must just have been official in my smutty mind.

It's been official since the Gotham City Girls cartoon.

:)

And I loved Gotham City Sirens.

Also because of a smutty mind.

Mister B
06-14-2015, 09:31 AM
I'm with you Danelsen. This whole thing just crosses a few lines, that make even me uncomfortable.
Bobby/Iceman has always been (in my opinion) the struggling super hero, feeling inadequate next to his peers. Always wanting to be more, and never quite getting there. And thats always been the charm and role of his presence. Despite the fact, he seems like an unneeded character. But also implying that he was "helped" by another psychic to not be gay? Get real, thats just wrong on so many god damn levels.
In a way I'm sorta glad i got out comics 17 years ago... :mad:

Jabroniville
06-14-2015, 11:33 AM
I'm with you Danelsen. This whole thing just crosses a few lines, that make even me uncomfortable.
Bobby/Iceman has always been (in my opinion) the struggling super hero, feeling inadequate next to his peers. Always wanting to be more, and never quite getting there. And thats always been the charm and role of his presence. Despite the fact, he seems like an unneeded character. But also implying that he was "helped" by another psychic to not be gay? Get real, thats just wrong on so many god damn levels.
In a way I'm sorta glad i got out comics 17 years ago... :mad:
They never said that in the issue- that's just speculation. The characters are just as confused as to why Teen Iceman is gay and Adult Iceman is seemingly-not. That's why I don't have an issue with how confusing and weird that is- the CHARACTERS are as well.

danelsan
06-14-2015, 10:16 PM
They never said that in the issue- that's just speculation. The characters are just as confused as to why Teen Iceman is gay and Adult Iceman is seemingly-not. That's why I don't have an issue with how confusing and weird that is- the CHARACTERS are as well.


I still reserve the right to be pissed if they use the story to imply (and downright angry if they use it to explicitly state) that one could stop being gay by choice.

I'm just in "wait and see" mode.

Jabroniville
06-14-2015, 10:31 PM
I was referring to Mister B's post, not yours. I shoulda added a quote or emphasis or something.

FuzzyBoots
01-12-2016, 11:38 AM
Mild necro, it seems that (http://kotaku.com/the-long-delayed-uncanny-x-men-600-finally-came-out-j-1740571727) Uncanny X-Men #600 has the older Bobby admitting that he's gay. I've since read through, and yup, he says just that, that he's been repressing it all of these years because he couldn't stand being discriminated against both for his sexual preferences and for being a mutant.

Whatever the external reasoning for it, in-universe, he has stated that he is and I'm willing to accept that (previously, coming on the heels of a plotline where young Jean Grey was shown to try to make others minds up for them, I assumed that this was leading into it having been something she engineered). Per Eric Burns's terminology, I'm going to consider this a Type 2 retcon (http://www.websnark.com/archives/2008/01/retconning_just_1.html), but it is now status quo.

saint_matthew
01-13-2016, 01:40 AM
Mild necro, it seems that (http://kotaku.com/the-long-delayed-uncanny-x-men-600-finally-came-out-j-1740571727) Uncanny X-Men #600 has the older Bobby admitting that he's gay. I've since read through, and yup, he says just that, that he's been repressing it all of these years because he couldn't stand being discriminated against both for his sexual preferences and for being a mutant.

I'd be offended but honestly at this point this is just Bendis having long ago run out of ideas.... Seriously has anyone looked forward to reading a book by Bendis since Dark Avengers? At this point I'm just waiting for the announcement that he'll be writing Civil War 2, as evidence that he's TOTALLY out of ideas.

luketheduke86
01-14-2016, 02:25 PM
I'd be offended but honestly at this point this is just Bendis having long ago run out of ideas.... Seriously has anyone looked forward to reading a book by Bendis since Dark Avengers? At this point I'm just waiting for the announcement that he'll be writing Civil War 2, as evidence that he's TOTALLY out of ideas.
So I guess that's actually happening. *sigh* Here's the link (http://therealstanlee.com/civil-war-2-captain-marvel).

Ares
01-14-2016, 04:05 PM
So I guess that's actually happening. *sigh* Here's the link (http://therealstanlee.com/civil-war-2-captain-marvel).

Oh God damnit.

saint_matthew
01-14-2016, 04:46 PM
So I guess that's actually happening. *sigh* Here's the link (http://therealstanlee.com/civil-war-2-captain-marvel).

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

*falls to knees*

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!

*picks self up, dusts self off*

I'll say this now I sincerely hope this is a joke.

thaumonuclear
01-14-2016, 07:13 PM
Clearly She-Hulk is siding with Captain Marvel because she sees a huge new market in defending people accused of pre-crime.

Phrozen
01-14-2016, 07:50 PM
So I guess that's actually happening. *sigh* Here's the link (http://therealstanlee.com/civil-war-2-captain-marvel).

And ripping off Minority Report too.

Quistar
01-14-2016, 08:12 PM
At least it's not Millar again.

Andrew

Mr Mole
01-14-2016, 08:56 PM
If I had even the slightest faith in or respect for the powers-that-be at Marvel over the last several years, I'd be praying this was a prank...

savijmuhdrox
01-15-2016, 06:19 AM
I can't even be mad anymore.. It's all such a blatant, pointless moneygrab..

saint_matthew
01-15-2016, 06:22 AM
If I had even the slightest faith in or respect for the powers-that-be at Marvel over the last several years, I'd be praying this was a prank...

Alas you live in a world where Carol Danvers became terminally boring as a character, where Thor was replaced by a character who some how managed to have less personality than the real Thor (if you could believe such a thing), where Spider-Man is a poor mans Steve Jobs & where there are like three different Avengers teams and not one of them is a superhero team.... Or frankly an Avengers team.

Honestly I wish both DC & Marvel stop trying to appeal to committed non consumers & remember who they are an what they produce.

Mr Mole
01-15-2016, 07:19 AM
Followed by... Countdown to Civil War... Final Civil War... Infinite Civil War... Countdown to Infinite Civil War... Final Civil War II... 'cause there's gold in them thar hills. Just gotta keep minin' it.

Reminds me a lot of "Prepare for the all-new sequel to the franchise reboot based on the sequel to the original franchise." Is JJ Abrams scheduled to do any of the Marvel movies? 'Cause that'd really be the icing on the cake.

MacynSnow
01-15-2016, 07:49 AM
What really get to me is that they already HAD a gay superhero:Northstar,Alpha Flight Alumi&overall General Jerk.
He was a good Character too,with a Decent Backstory and Supporting Cast.It just kindof tic's me off a little that they didn't turn him into a big name...:mad:

savijmuhdrox
01-15-2016, 07:58 AM
Alas you live in a world where Carol Danvers became terminally boring as a character, where Thor was replaced by a character who some how managed to have less personality than the real Thor (if you could believe such a thing), where Spider-Man is a poor mans Steve Jobs & where there are like three different Avengers teams and not one of them is a superhero team.... Or frankly an Avengers team.

Honestly I wish both DC & Marvel stop trying to appeal to committed non consumers & remember who they are an what they produce.

and now, I live in a world where I agree with SaintMatthew..

Blue Blazes!

MacynSnow
01-15-2016, 08:35 AM
you have admit,he HAS a point!:D

Mr Mole
01-15-2016, 09:13 AM
What really get to me is that they already HAD a gay superhero:Northstar,Alpha Flight Alumi&overall General Jerk.
He was a good Character too,with a Decent Backstory and Supporting Cast.It just kindof tic's me off a little that they didn't turn him into a big name...:mad:
What? I thought Northstar was a big deal... 'cause Marvel made a big ol' production out of him being gay... which is pretty much the only thing he's actually recognized for. It overshadowed every other detail about him, which, if he wasn't such a jerk, would be a bit tragic.

French-Canadian mutant olympic snow skiier who shares symbiotic powers with his twin sister would be more than enough for most characters to get saddled with.

The details where the twin sister with huge mental health issues dates a yeti who turns into a woman for awhile might've stolen some of Northstar's thunder, though.

...or any of the dozens of daytime soap opera storylines from Alpha Flight...


and now, I live in a world where I agree with SaintMatthew..

Blue Blazes!
Yeah, I know where you're coming from. I've had that exact same feeling before. It never completely goes away, but it becomes a bit less of a system shock after awhile. :eek:

saint_matthew
01-15-2016, 03:45 PM
and now, I live in a world where I agree with SaintMatthew..

Man that has to suck for you. ;)

luketheduke86
01-16-2016, 01:44 AM
Who wants to bet that Marvel incorrectly assumes what faction fans will side with this time too?

thaumonuclear
01-16-2016, 03:50 AM
Who wants to bet that Marvel incorrectly assumes what faction fans will side with this time too?

Does "DC" count as a faction?

savijmuhdrox
01-18-2016, 05:56 AM
Man that has to suck for you. ;)

It's alright. I get to grow a mustache and be sinister me.. :cool:

saint_matthew
01-18-2016, 06:49 AM
It's alright. I get to grow a mustache and be sinister me.. :cool:

Do you have a sash to wear? Or would you like to borrow one?

Edit: Wowsers, I just saw Marvels sales figures for November & December with the All New, All Different Marvel..... All I can say is that yes complete fiscal failure is certainly an all new, all different approach to business.

Mr Mole
01-18-2016, 08:02 AM
Do you have a sash to wear? Or would you like to borrow one.

Best Spock ever. :o

...although I think a less sparkly sash would've been better still... :rolleyes:

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/6/64/Kirk_Spock_personal_guards.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090221051209&path-prefix=en

savijmuhdrox
01-18-2016, 10:03 AM
Thank you, Mr Mole for clarifying the sash thing for me.. I had no idea what it was in reference to.

My 'evil doppelganger knowledge' has now increased..

as for Marvel's sales.. muahahahaaha!!!

if I had decent access to the numbers, I think I would go all pastafarian on them and much the same way they show the decline of pirates has lead to global warming.. I would attempt to show that Marvel's sales is directly linked to appearances of Speedball.

I may have to fudge some numbers.. may have to keep that mustache n' sash at the ready.

Yeoman
01-18-2016, 11:29 AM
Do you have a sash to wear? Or would you like to borrow one?

Edit: Wowsers, I just saw Marvels sales figures for November & December with the All New, All Different Marvel..... All I can say is that yes complete fiscal failure is certainly an all new, all different approach to business.

Slightly better than you were at the beginning of the year (http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/big-events-relaunches-boosted-comic-book-sales-in-2015) is an odd way to define "complete fiscal failure."

It dips down in December, yeah, but really that's to be expected since retailers almost always drop their orders on second and third issues. Not to mention that I'm pretty sure that only tracks physical books ordered in an area when more and more people are going digital or just buying trades. My local comic store sells ten times the number of trades of Saga or the Walking Dead than they order individual issues, and I've heard rumor that if you track combined physical and digital sales, Ms Marvel outsells JLA.

Individual copies of books and tracking that is madness and leads to moves like cancelling New York Times best seller Secret Six.

Goldar
01-18-2016, 11:54 AM
... may have to keep that mustache n' sash at the ready.

I already have the 'stache.

But, speaking of Sash, that looks conspicuously like Jean Grey's Phoenix sash to me! It's even tied on the same side. Kirk, you thief!

Mr Mole
01-18-2016, 12:01 PM
Kirk, you thief!
...except that Kirk was wearing that sash back around '67(ish) and Phoenix didn't make an appearance until '76, if my memory serves me correctly...

Marvel Girl predates Kirk, but Phoenix and her sash don't.

saint_matthew
01-18-2016, 10:41 PM
Best Spock ever. :o

...although I think a less sparkly sash would've been better still... :rolleyes:

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/6/64/Kirk_Spock_personal_guards.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090221051209&path-prefix=en

I would have also accepted the scene out of the comedy remake of "Land of the Lost" in which it is explicitly stated that sashes denote evil.

Jabroniville
01-18-2016, 11:25 PM
Slightly better than you were at the beginning of the year (http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/big-events-relaunches-boosted-comic-book-sales-in-2015) is an odd way to define "complete fiscal failure."

It dips down in December, yeah, but really that's to be expected since retailers almost always drop their orders on second and third issues. Not to mention that I'm pretty sure that only tracks physical books ordered in an area when more and more people are going digital or just buying trades. My local comic store sells ten times the number of trades of Saga or the Walking Dead than they order individual issues, and I've heard rumor that if you track combined physical and digital sales, Ms Marvel outsells JLA.

Individual copies of books and tracking that is madness and leads to moves like cancelling New York Times best seller Secret Six.

What's interesting (and frankly, to be expected) about that article is just how BADLY Marvel is annihilating DC at this point. It seems that DC's "New 52", while getting an initial sales rush (because, duh, 52 #1 issues in one year), has been an absolute disaster. It managed to enrage a ton of the fanbase, annoy others, and fill the rest with raw, unfiltered "meh". Killing their own continuity has made nobody take their books seriously anymore, and Marvel is beating the snot out of them in sales because of it. It also helps that Marvel's been hyping up popular creators and shaking up their titles a little bit.

Although the fact that #1 issues are not selling as well as they used to should REALLY worry the Big Two, because they've been leaning on that one a little too hard (A-Force has received THREE #1 issues since it debuted!), and we all remember what happened LAST time comics ended up going to a "proven seller" well one too many times, despite diminishing returns (ie. the Great Comic Book Crash and "Special Covers").

At least Saga is still doing well- that it's the top TPB set of the year is great news.

Mr Mole
01-19-2016, 06:47 AM
I would have also accepted the scene out of the comedy remake of "Land of the Lost" in which it is explicitly stated that sashes denote evil.
The original series was terrible in its own way, but the movie remake is an affront to my childhood memories. It's a bigger abomination than Star Trek Into Darkness.

As for Marvel or DC sales figures, I haven't seen them so I don't have an informed opinion. Right now, the entire purpose of the comics seems to be as a marketing tool for the movies and associated merchandise... which, while I find it distasteful, is a legitimate business move.

The comic books I grew up with are all dead. That era is done. Things might circle back around again someday, but I doubt it. The confluence of factors that lead to Marvel and DC being in the comic book printing business for decades isn't going to repeat.

Neither company is going in a direction I care for or want to support, with the exception of the occasional movie ticket purchase... but the money they're making in movie deals is making their comic books sales insignificant in comparison, so I don't expect they care too much that they've lost my patronage when it comes to actual comic books.

Such is life.

savijmuhdrox
01-19-2016, 10:42 AM
DC's new 52 was a decent idea.. just not implemented well... it lacked follow-thru

not to rehash it here, and maybe to try to get back to the topic at hand.. I'm just sick of both companies doing almost every GIMMICK they can think of to get people to buy their books with the single sole exception being 'write better stories'.

It's like all they can do now is grab headlines. Newsflash, jabronies.. the people whose intellectual codpiece you're fellating with all these SJW-placating books..THEY DON'T BUY THEM... AND NEVER DID.

Gods, man (and woman); just write better. So Iceman is gay. Wonderful. Now can we get back to an original story? or are we setting up Civil War 17? or, sorry are we promoting Apocalypse just in time for his movie?

Goldar
01-19-2016, 11:15 AM
DC's new 52 was a decent idea.. just not implemented well... it lacked follow-thru

not to rehash it here, and maybe to try to get back to the topic at hand.. I'm just sick of both companies doing almost every GIMMICK they can think of to get people to buy their books with the single sole exception being 'write better stories'.

I totally agree. I have been saying that the "creative talent", for me, is something that has been lacking for 20+ years.

This, despite many fans, even ones on here, disagreeing (like I am sure there will be with this post) that "such-and-such was da bomb", which not only tales away from my point in general, but specifically makes the writers think they are doing something right! And it is a vicious cycle because one does not know their favorite book is downhill, until such book is purchased and for a while, so the issues sold stay at a higher point than they should for quite a bit before going down. It is just the nature of the beast.

Today, I don't think either company is producing anything like the quality that they used to do. Instead, both companies are relying on older fans who want to be completists with their comics and newer fans who want to read everything that is put out, mindlessly buying whatever is there, including all the movies.

Yeoman
01-19-2016, 11:23 AM
What's interesting (and frankly, to be expected) about that article is just how BADLY Marvel is annihilating DC at this point. It seems that DC's "New 52", while getting an initial sales rush (because, duh, 52 #1 issues in one year), has been an absolute disaster. It managed to enrage a ton of the fanbase, annoy others, and fill the rest with raw, unfiltered "meh". Killing their own continuity has made nobody take their books seriously anymore, and Marvel is beating the snot out of them in sales because of it. It also helps that Marvel's been hyping up popular creators and shaking up their titles a little bit.

Although the fact that #1 issues are not selling as well as they used to should REALLY worry the Big Two, because they've been leaning on that one a little too hard (A-Force has received THREE #1 issues since it debuted!), and we all remember what happened LAST time comics ended up going to a "proven seller" well one too many times, despite diminishing returns (ie. the Great Comic Book Crash and "Special Covers").

At least Saga is still doing well- that it's the top TPB set of the year is great news.


What killed DC wasn't getting rid of their own continuity, it was that most of the new books were micromanaged by editorial, farmed out to work for hire writers, and were juvenile, violent T&A when they weren't just plain bad.

DC did a GREAT pre-launch. They drummed up a ton of interest, got people into shops to check these out. And then they paid three to four bucks for 22 pages of crap. And the books that were good were either drowned out or the writers got fed up and left when they weren't fired for little to no reason.

While some of this is hindsight, but where I gonna do that launch?

1) Planning. You're launching a new universe. Get people together and plan.
2) Creators. Have creators come up with ideas for the majority of your books. Have them pitch them. Pick what works best.
3) Cheap launch. Plan on loss leaders. But out oversized cheap number ones, plan on a large digital launch.

savijmuhdrox
01-19-2016, 12:30 PM
This, despite many fans, even ones on here, disagreeing (like I am sure there will be with this post) that "such-and-such was da bomb", which not only tales away from my point in general, but specifically makes the writers think they are doing something right! And it is a vicious cycle because one does not know their favorite book is downhill, until such book is purchased and for a while, so the issues sold stay at a higher point than they should for quite a bit before going down. It is just the nature of the beast.



I honestly (and perhaps fervently) believe that the best way forward is, to take a page from Frank Herbert's Dune series.. the best way forward for a multitude of books is to be removed from each other and allowed to evolve separately. (In Dune, it was the God Emperor's vision that humanity spread among the stars to evolve and live separately, to best protect them from annihilation of one society.. )

ANYWAYs, sorry... some of the better things I have read have always been things that do their own thing.. and don't rely on tie-ins and gimmicky one-shot appearances... just take the ball and run with it.. WaTXM was (IMHO) a somewhat decent example of this. Sure, it did involve Wolverine, the poster child for gimmickey one-shot.. but it gave us some pretty kewl stuff.. Kid Gladiator, more Quentin Quire hijinx, Eye-boy (who is badass as Eye-man, just saying)

It can't be that hard for either company to plot a storyboard for a year and lay out intended character development arcs.. editorial can stick to things like "Cyclops is dead, use someone else there" instead of "we need a Rocket Raccoon appearance, GotG is out on Blu-ray"

once you do that, and the ball is rolling.. the book has a rhythym, an identity.. and people will hopefully catch on..