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McBamf
12-12-2014, 02:29 PM
So I'm tediously working on the characters for my group (if you've seen my previous posts, you'll know that I am building their power sets as the series is based on the pc's discovering they have powers).

I have the Water Power Profile, and for Mist it has the following:

You can fill the air with condensing water vapor, creating a heavy mist that obscures vision. This power may also
be able to counteract water-based mist or fog (natural orcreated by other powers) as a countering effect.
Mist: Environment (Limited Visibility) 2 points per rank.

If the aim is to create a cloud that encompasses the entire group, would I add the Affects Others and Range modifiers? Also, it would be a Cloud or Burst shape, would it not? Adding another ppr? The description is not specific about the Perception penalty, but since it's going with Environment (vs Concealment), I'm thinking it would be the full -5 since it's 2ppr.

Any thoughts? Am I understanding this correctly?

badpenny
12-12-2014, 02:41 PM
All Environment effects are by default Burst Area, but with GM permission you could swap it with another Area effect for no change in cost, e.g. a Light effect in the shape of a Cone. a "cloud" of mist doesn't need a change since burst area gets the job done and Cloud Area isn't helpful here since you're not using something like Damage or Affliction where you need the Secondary Effect component of Cloud Area.

The 2pp Limited Visibility is a -5 penalty to Perception checks.

Environment is centered on you, so technically, if you have enough area, you don't need range. You wouldn't need Affects Others since it's an area effect and effects everyone within it.

Battleforger
12-12-2014, 05:14 PM
First off - the counteract part requires an alternate effect, which will then be Nullify. Costs you 1PP more and will allow you to switch between those two effects. If you want to create it somewhere but not around you, you can pick "indirect" that would allow you to place it somewhere else.

Monolith
12-12-2014, 05:21 PM
First off - the counteract part requires an alternate effect, which will then be Nullify. Costs you 1PP more and will allow you to switch between those two effects. If you want to create it somewhere but not around you, you can pick "indirect" that would allow you to place it somewhere else.
The counteract part is just using the ability as a regular counter descriptor. It has nothing to do with the nullify power. The mist descriptor can be used to counter.

JDRook
12-12-2014, 05:56 PM
Environment is centered on you, so technically, if you have enough area, you don't need range. You wouldn't need Affects Others since it's an area effect and effects everyone within it.
To elaborate, you would only need Affects Others if the people you were affecting could take the effect and move outside of the area with it. In this case, that would be like taking pieces of the mist cloud with them, which doesn't really fit concept.

Battleforger
12-12-2014, 08:06 PM
The counteract part is just using the ability as a regular counter descriptor. It has nothing to do with the nullify power. The mist descriptor can be used to counter.

There is a difference though - if you counter it with the "Omg a flamethrower, lets shoot my water bazooka to counter it" it will only stop it for one round. Also you would have to have a reaction action to actually counter it (so drag your turn out so you can react once it is activated).

It is not a viable long-term solution. Lets say its a poison mist - while you could counter it each turn, you would have to take a standard action each turn to do so, while your enemy could easily have the power as a concentration/sustained/continuous.

If you want to actually drive something away and replace it with your mist, i would suggest Nullify, since thats what this power is made for. The 1PP extra cost isnt that dramatic, but its your choice, whether you want to have a reliable counter or just a fairly weak ointment. You should also not forget that its an opposed check of your effect's rank + 1d20 and the enemies effect's rank + 1d20. With a 2pp environment you will most probably always loose.

Monolith
12-12-2014, 08:12 PM
Nullify is also an instant effect that must use a standard action each round. At the end of the day whether you counter the fog with mist or nullify it with an alternate effect you still end up with a single round solution. The next round the person can bring the fog back up and you can attempt to counter/nullify it again. You might as well save the point for the ae and just go the counter route.

Battleforger
12-13-2014, 05:28 AM
Well, yes, Nullify is per default instant but you can increase the duration or make it contagious. You can actually modify it as a normal power. You can not increase the duration of the normal counter since its always instant and it will always work in only one way - that being a pushing against an attack and putting the user always in the defensive. I dont know where your hate for Nullify comes from to be honest. Saw your discussion on the other Nullify thread. Has it killed your dog or something?

Monolith
12-13-2014, 06:32 AM
Well, yes, Nullify is per default instant but you can increase the duration or make it contagious. You can actually modify it as a normal power. You can not increase the duration of the normal counter since its always instant and it will always work in only one way - that being a pushing against an attack and putting the user always in the defensive. I dont know where your hate for Nullify comes from to be honest. Saw your discussion on the other Nullify thread. Has it killed your dog or something?
Dude, you're the one who popped into the thread telling the OP to not use the power the way the description stated it could be used; and the way the rules also state it can be used. A counter maneuver is nothing but a free nullify everyone gets access to because of their powers opposing descriptors. There's no reason to buy it again when your descriptor gives it to you for free. This has nothing to do with liking or not liking nullify and all to do with understanding that counter and nullify are the same thing and that there's no reason mist needs to pay for nullify too unless you're wanting something broader then the free opposing descriptors version.

Battleforger
12-13-2014, 07:02 AM
Dude, you're the one who popped into the thread telling the OP to not use the power the way the description stated it could be used; and the way the rules also state it can be used. A counter maneuver is nothing but a free nullify everyone gets access to because of their powers opposing descriptors. There's no reason to buy it again when your descriptor gives it to you for free. This has nothing to do with liking or not liking nullify and all to do with understanding that counter and nullify are the same thing and that there's no reason mist needs to pay for nullify too unless you're wanting something broader then the free opposing descriptors version.

Well, because its ineffective^^ I mean, if someone writes "Im going to create a Lv1 blast effect and then use it to counter PL15 firecascades" then im going to tell him, that he has a pretty low chance at succeeding. If he wants his power to actually work, he has to use and upgrade it in a way that makes it possible.
Also, the GM can easily say that he cant counter most of the attacks its supposed to, because this fog has no real current or force. Its environmental. Personally i would never allow to counter a wildfire with some normal mist. It just doesnt have the magnitude to do so, which is shown in its costs of 2pp. Even if it would be a very, very difficult check, since the rank of the fire would be far higher. Same goes for enemy's fog. If its not "Environment" they are using, it will probably be around Rank10+. Thus winning the counter will be very difficult.

The character also wont be able to get rid of something existing - counter only works when you yourself are attacked.

So yeah, i would say that being able to actively counter effects is actually pretty important so you dont choke to death on the poison fog while failing at countering it with your 2pp mist.

That all aside from the fact that thats not how mist or fog work. They do not oppose each other, they mix. So - and again, my personal opinion - as a GM i would say that both exist at the same time in the same place, since both are gaseous and "Environment: Mist/Fog" has no active current to drive anything away. That would require a wind based power or - as already explained - Nullify, because thats what one tries to do.

The powers are rather simple to understand - you cant summon creatures with create, because there is summon. You cant metamorph someone with Transform, because there is Metamorph. You cant Nullify anything with anything, because thats what Nullify, alternate effect, power stunt and array are for.

Monolith
12-13-2014, 07:14 AM
Counter doesn't require you to only be attacked. There's a whole section on countering lingering and ongoing effects; such as using your water power to put out a house fire. The description of mist is clearly talking about those types of non-attack counters.

And yes, a rank 1 blast is going to have a hard time countering a rank 15, but that's why they get the 1d20 roll. The 1 rank can roll a 20 and the 15 rank can roll a 3. But a rank 1 nullify alternate effect isn't going to do any better. :)

Battleforger
12-13-2014, 08:27 AM
Getting the feeling you act stupid on purpose. The Nullify doesnt have to be Rank 1, it has to cost the same (2pp).

So, Nullify Lv10 with Distracting, Fades, Increased Duration, Diminished Range Lv2 and Unreliable (5 uses) will cost 2pp. It will be a power that runs pretty quickly out of juice, but works for the time being. After it ran out of power one still can use the crappy counter version.

FuzzyBoots
12-13-2014, 08:35 AM
:) I understand that you have a position you wish to defend, but ad hoc "Flaws" on a power to drive down the cost, particularly ones picked on an AE that are unlikely to really have an effect since they're picked for the immediate situation, are unlikely to be approved by a GM.

And can you tone down the insults? We try to be civil around here. Doesn't always work, but we do try.

Monolith
12-13-2014, 08:36 AM
Getting the feeling you act stupid on purpose. The Nullify doesnt have to be Rank 1, it has to cost the same (2pp).

So, Nullify Lv10 with Distracting, Fades, Increased Duration, Diminished Range Lv2 and Unreliable (5 uses) will cost 2pp. It will be a power that runs pretty quickly out of juice, but works for the time being. After it ran out of power one still can use the crappy counter version.
First off, don't make personal attacks on people simply because you were wrong in your initial post and are now too proud to admit that. The mist works perfectly fine as a counter and doesn't require anyone to buy nullify.

Second, nullify is limited to pl. It requires an attack roll and the opposing roll. So if you can only have a rank 1 blast the odds were you're limited to that due to pl, so nullify can't be more then 1 rank either.

Finally, if you tried to bring that flaw-encrusted nullify build into my game I would laugh you away from the table. That build's a perfect example of someone doing nothing but trying to outwit the game rules and point-crush the system.

Battleforger
12-13-2014, 09:47 AM
Are you for real? It was not an insult. Ffs i said "You act stupid on purpose" - Jim Carrey acts stupid on purpose. Doesnt mean he is a stupid, does it?

Also - i were not wrong with my post. You cant spin powers around to use them the way you want them to work instead of they way they actually work according to the book. You want nullify an effect by countering it? Get the Nullify power. You are the one trying to twist the counter system that is supposed to work on the extremely rare occasion that two utterly opposing powers - i.e. Light and Dark, Water and Fire - meet on each other. What he wants is to counter a SIMILAR power. They do not negate each other and thus there is no point why it would actually work without any modification. Can you get poisoned on a misty morning by a gas? Can a different gaseous substance easily enter fog and mist?

Seriously, saying that fog counters other gases is like saying fire counters embers and avalanche countering a blizzard. Same descriptor. Whats so hard to grasp about it?

A clever GM knows the flaws of his player's powers and uses those to counter their powers. If someone i.e. would come up with a power that is too strong imho and has "unreliable 5 uses", i would simply bait him to use it or create multiple targets he would want to attack. If he has a distracting flaw, i would blindside him with an unexpected attack.

Never understood people who were too lazy to actually become creative in what they do and how they master, rather prohibiting tons of things (one GM i knew did so with regeneration, morph, summon, variable, transform, invisibility, duplication, growth, immortality, any luck-effects, and shapeshift, so he could "get rid of the stupid powergaming" in a goddamn SUPERHERO setting) than think around them and create a more complex play.

If one actually pokes where it hurts and shows the player that his flaws are actually flaws that make it more difficult to use a power and sometimes make it unsuitable for use at all, then the player wont pack it full of disadvantages she cant handle OR know that he will have to deal with them.

Monolith
12-13-2014, 10:07 AM
Battleforge, what cracks me up is that the person who wrote the game wrote the mist description. Yet you want to believe the game designer had no idea how countering worked and so got it wrong in the descriptive text? Seriously? And did you even read the power's description above? It does not say "other gases", it states water and fog related as its descriptor counters.

McBamf, please ignore Battleforge. He's obviously not as rules proficient as he pretends to be. Countering is a viable tactic within the game. Yes, you can buy an alternate effect of nullify, or even power stunt nullify if you do not wish to buy it, if you want a wider application for the counter, but for limited descriptor vrs descriptor countering the free version everyone gets works fine.

Battleforger
12-13-2014, 10:33 AM
<In some circumstances the effects of one power may counter
another, negating it. Generally for two effects to counter
each other they must have opposed descriptors. For example,
light and darkness powers can counter each other
as can heat and cold, water and fire, and so forth. In some
cases, such as magical or mental effects, powers of the
same descriptor can also counter each other. The GM is the
final arbiter as to whether or not an effect with a particular
descriptor can counter another. The Nullify effect (see page
121) can counter any effect of a particular descriptor!

Rocket Science. I know. All the fog and mist there is mentioned.

Monolith
12-13-2014, 10:36 AM
Rocket Science. I know. All the fog and mist there is mentioned.
I was clearly discussing the description of mist from above: "This power may also be able to counteract water-based mist or fog (natural or created by other powers) as a countering effect."

You are so hell-bent on proving that you are not wrong that you are completely ignoring or misinterpreting what is being said to you.

Battleforger
12-13-2014, 11:34 AM
Environment - not a single word about it.
Countering Effects - not a single word about it.

Would you mind post your source that declares the fact that you can counter power with the same descriptor as yours? Im always eager to expand my knowledge.

Edit: i mean of course the main rulebook, not some expansion 20-page-booklet that is based on the main rulebook.

FuzzyBoots
12-13-2014, 12:08 PM
Page 148 of my Third Edition Deluxe Heroes Handbook, page 86 of the DC Heroes Handbook:


In some cases, such as magical or mental effects, powers of the same descriptor can also counter each other. The GM is the final arbiter as to whether or not an effect with a particular descriptor can counter another.

Really, the capstone there is the last sentence, that it's entirely up to the GM.

Darkdreamer
12-13-2014, 10:35 PM
Battleforger, bluntly, you're on the wrong side of this one. You do not need Nullify to counter something. While this is a post regarding 2e, nothing much in this area has changed since 2e:

http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=23911&p=379906&hilit=nullify#p379906

Battleforger
12-14-2014, 05:31 AM
Battleforger, bluntly, you're on the wrong side of this one. You do not need Nullify to counter something. While this is a post regarding 2e, nothing much in this area has changed since 2e:

http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=23911&p=379906&hilit=nullify#p379906

No, but you need the opposed descriptor and i have yet to see where the main rulebook states differently. Ofc it could be magical mist or mental fog, so it slips away from the normal ruling, but water powers are VERY rarely magical and are far more often simply elemental. So yes, if the OP has a water-mage rather than a superhero with water powers, it may work if his GM is in good mood. Though i couldnt find the word "magical" or "mental" anywhere in his post.
Im only referring to the 3rd edition, because we are playing the 3rd edition. If someone points me at a page in the Hero's Handbook of the 3rd Edition where it says "Well, yeah, normally you need opposed descriptors, but what's the big deal, amaright m8? Just counter with whatever you want" i will gladly accept that ive been wrong and apologize for not being capable of reading a text in a book.

FuzzyBoots
12-14-2014, 06:05 AM
Battleforger, just to be clear, I assume that you find inadequate the quotes I posted at the bottom of the second page where, next to the discussion on opposing descriptors, they say that the same descriptors can also work, and ultimately it's all up to the GM? It's easy to miss quotes that were not on the last page of discussion after all.

Otherwise, all I can do is shrug and say that the game has explicitly invoked Rule 0, so we're all right and all wrong depending on who's playing the game. :cool:

Battleforger
12-14-2014, 07:23 AM
Ofc it could be magical mist or mental fog, so it slips away from the normal ruling, but water powers are VERY rarely magical and are far more often simply elemental. So yes, if the OP has a water-mage rather than a superhero with water powers, it may work if his GM is in good mood. Though i couldnt find the word "magical" or "mental" anywhere in his post.

No, i explicitly mentioned that it can work, if it has nothing to do with normal physics. Magical and mental powers may look the same, but they don't mix like normal physical objects would, thus they can "push" against each other, thus countering. Ofc the GM has the last word, but then no one is wrong and everyone is right. I was talking about the rules as they are written. Personally though i would not accept a player trying to counter an avalanche with a blizzard or a chain-lightning with a lightning storm. I guess its just my flawed logic though to assume that he wasnt magical, if he hasnt stated that he is.

FuzzyBoots
12-14-2014, 08:18 AM
No. I think it's just a difference of opinion on how descriptors and powersets work. I think you're coming at it from the perspective of, as you said, "a player trying to counter an avalanche with a blizzard or a chain-lightning with a lightning storm", but if the player's powers involve controlling ice, or controlling the weather, why shouldn't they be able to try to counter an avalanche by controlling the flow of snow so that it gets dammed up, or countering chain lightning by providing an alternate grounding point, much like how they aim their lightning storm? Similarly, the argument here is that, if you can control mist to summon it, there's a good chance that you have the Required Secondary Powers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RequiredSecondaryPowers) that would let you choose to try to counter your opponent's power. If, in your games, you choose to interpret the line about the GM needing to decide as requiring diametric opposites, that's your game, but the Rules As Written include that flexibility, explicitly as I pointed out.

Black Mamba
12-14-2014, 09:16 AM
It seems like all the hot discussion goes on in this section of the forum. :)

I have never had an issue with like-Descriptors Countering each other. In fact it makes a lot of sense to me that it should work that way - water should be able to Counter water, or wind can Counter wind, the Summers boys can Counter each other, two Green Lanterns can Counter each other, and onward. One of my favorite memories from Justice League: Unlimited is when three Wind Dragons are shooting their wind blasts at Red Tornado and he Counters all three with his wind blast and then blows all of them backwards, showing that his control of wind is so much greater then all of them - of course in game terms it was just a Team Attack that might have only added a +2 Circumstance bonus to Wind Dragon. :)

Comic book needs and game logic do not always go hand-in-hand. I think each GM needs to decide for him/herself how they want to handle these things. The most important thing is to be able to capture the type of genre feel you want for your game. M&M leaves a lot of open-ended rules so that GM's can do precisely that, and a lot of the burden of M&M lays on the GM's shoulders. A lot of that probably stems from the fact that when each one of us thinks about comic book characters we are all probably envisioning different eras and even different mediums - with a lot of the younger guys more familiar with the movie versions then the comic book versions.

I would personally have no problem if a player wanted to use his Mist rain to push down the fog in a clearing, or certain heavy fog-like gases in an area, as a Counter. It seems like a very logical thing to do. I would probably even give the player a Hero Point for some creative thinking. At the end of the day it is still about everyone playing having some fun, and sometimes too much adherence to a strict interpretation of the rules can hamper that fun.

Battleforger
12-14-2014, 09:53 AM
Sigh, ok. Why shouldnt someone who controlls wind not be able to counter bullets? Or fireballs? Or anything else that has any mass whatsoever? Why couldnt a mage with his eldritch force fields not counter absolutely everything? After all its magic, right? The free countering that you get and that is described in the "countering effects" chapter is - in my honest opinion - only supposed to allow you to counter things that are a direct opposite of yours. Its supposed to occur rarely, maybe once in an entire campaign. If someone wants to counter and deflect more often, he needs Deflect or Nullify for that or use power stunts. Or alternate effects. Or arrays. Or variable descriptor. But you dont get stuff for free, because you want it.

If we put everything under rule 0, we dont need rules at all. And just to be clear - im not saying "do as i say !!!!111eleventyeleven", im just not going to accept anyone claiming i wouldnt know the rules. If you want to homebrew rules - hey, do what you want as long as you have fun - im playing by the book.

Black Mamba
12-14-2014, 10:15 AM
The RAW is the RAW, but even the RAW tells the GMs to decide for themselves when the need warrants it. I can present imaged of Superman Countering Supergirl's and Superboy's Heat Vision with his own. I can post images of Superman Countering Ultraman's Heat Vision with his own - and that extends to essentially all the Crime Syndicate against their Justice League counterparts. I can even supply images of Superman Countering Darkseid's Omega Beam with his Heat Vision. Unfortunately the source material is not as strict as you wish the rules to be.

I would also say that the game gives you all types of things for free - not the least of which is giving you a free Counter based on Descriptors so that you do not need to purchase an Alternate Effect to do it. :)

Of course I did not come into this thread to debate - I left these forums because of all the senseless debating. I simply came to give my opinion on the subject at hand. Everyone is capable of making up their own mind on the point.

JDRook
12-14-2014, 10:49 AM
In some
cases, such as magical or mental effects, powers of the
same descriptor can also counter each other. The GM is the
final arbiter as to whether or not an effect with a particular
descriptor can counter another. The Nullify effect (see page
121) can counter any effect of a particular descriptor!
BF seems to be focusing on the magical or mental aspect of this quote (hence the emphasis), while I think others are focusing on the "such as" right before it, suggesting that while magic or mental descriptors can be used to counter effects of the same descriptor, they are not the only descriptors in the entire game that can do this.

Narratively, the OP's power is about changing water density in the air, which makes the mist. It is suggested that the power could also counter other water vapor-based powers, and that seems reasonable. Depending on how powerful (ie the rank) the water power is, it may not always be effective, but it certainly fits in the game.

So if Foghat with his Misthat power (Environment: Visibility rank 1) comes up against Mr. Mister with his Wet Blanket power (Environment: Visibility rank 20), it's possible if unlikely that FH could try to counter Mr. Mister's mist. MM could also try to counter FH's mist, and likely be successful.

Let's say another water-based PC shows up. The Hoser has a water blast made by condensing water and shooting it at people at phenomenal speeds (Range Damage 10). He shoots at Foghat, who tries to counter it, which would be difficult but far from impossible; with the use of a Hero Point for reroll, it's practically even odds. Hoser turns on Mr. Mister, who tries the same countering move, and is very likely to succeed, essentially evaporating the blast before it can do any harm.

If Hoser's archnemesis the Flamer shows up and starts throwing around his Great Balls of Fire (Range Burst Damage 10), it's the exact same thing, provided the GM is kosher with Fire and Water being opposed. Keep in mind that point cost is not an issue, only rank, so it doesn't matter how many Extras or Flaws are on a power for the purpose of countering.

Now if Gunbunny shows up and peels the foil off of his Chocolate Kalashnikov and starts blasting Easter goodness in all directions (Range Multiattack Damage 10), it's likely none of these guys could counter his cocoa-dumdums with their water-based powers, but the GM might rule that Flamer could melt the chocolate before it can hit, and so could attempt to counter it. Of course, countering does require an action to use, so all of these would have been readied actions, but Flamer might try to melt the bullets with his Sizzle Aura (Reaction Damage 5), so he doesn't actually need to use any of his regular actions. It might not succeed, since it's d20+5 vs d20+10, but if it did work, it would be kind of awesome.

So can we wrap this up and go back to being awesome now?

Battleforger
12-14-2014, 11:02 AM
So can we wrap this up and go back to being awesome now?

Always am.

ronyon
12-14-2014, 06:23 PM
The mist vs mist is a pretty poor representative for the like countering like argument,even though the supporting text comes from the man himself. He makes some edgy choices because he counts on rule 0.
I happen to think there has been enough text cited to support countering like with like, but it should have been explicitly stated in the countering rules section.

Darkdreamer
12-15-2014, 10:44 AM
Battleforger, I'm not going to get into an extended argument with you about this, but I think "it has to be in the main book or it doesn't count" is kind of weaksauce when you're trying to determine what the intent of the rule is, and the author has expanded on it elsewhere. And he has. If that's your standard, that's your biz, but if you wonder why you're getting so much pushback, that's because from outside it doesn't seem a sensible position.

Monolith
12-15-2014, 11:59 AM
Fuzzy summed it up for me pretty well. It makes no sense that cold control dude can't counter cold attacks shot at him but he can counter fire control dude's shots all day long. It's counter intuitive to think that way. Whether you want to follow the rules as written or the part about gm's descrition it still needs to make some logical sense. If superman can't counter superboy or human torch can't counter pyro it ends up being really stupid. Whether it's in the book or not it's the gm's job to have it all make sense.

Battleforger
12-15-2014, 01:23 PM
Battleforger, I'm not going to get into an extended argument with you about this, but I think "it has to be in the main book or it doesn't count" is kind of weaksauce when you're trying to determine what the intent of the rule is, and the author has expanded on it elsewhere. And he has. If that's your standard, that's your biz, but if you wonder why you're getting so much pushback, that's because from outside it doesn't seem a sensible position.

So, cant leave it at that, huh? Well, if you want to revive the discussion, fine by me. The expansion packs are based on the main rulebook and thus can not contradict it. If the main book states that 2+2=4, then i wont accept anyone telling me that 2+2=potato, because the Potato Profile expansion booklet said that. If someone wants to counter shit, he has to have the COUNTER to it, not the exactly same power. Water counters fire, fire counters plants, plants counter earth and so on - we all played pokemon i think.

And no, i do not wonder why i get so much "pushback", if people who are wrong would stop arguing at any point, there would be no politics. Yes, the irony is strong with this one, since in your eyes im probably the one who is wrong.

FuzzyBoots
12-15-2014, 01:43 PM
And no, i do not wonder why i get so much "pushback", if people who are wrong would stop arguing at any point, there would be no politics. Yes, the irony is strong with this one, since in your eyes im probably the one who is wrong.
Ee... I think we just have a difference of opinion on what a sentence means. I've been in your position before (http://xkcd.com/386/). Much like debating religion, I don't think this is something where beliefs will be budged because we're looking at the exact same evidence and seeing different things.

Darkdreamer
12-16-2014, 11:14 PM
So, cant leave it at that, huh? Well, if you want to revive the discussion, fine by me. The expansion packs are based on the main rulebook and thus can not contradict it. If the main book states that 2+2=4, then i wont accept anyone telling me that 2+2=potato, because the Potato Profile expansion booklet said that. If someone wants to counter shit, he has to have the COUNTER to it, not the exactly same power. Water counters fire, fire counters plants, plants counter earth and so on - we all played pokemon i think.

And no, i do not wonder why i get so much "pushback", if people who are wrong would stop arguing at any point, there would be no politics. Yes, the irony is strong with this one, since in your eyes im probably the one who is wrong.

When the author of the game says it works that way, it worked that way the entirety of the prior edition, and it appears from my reading of the rules as written that there's no extremely specific limits as to what can and can't counter, and some of the commonest examples in the genre include people doing what you're objecting to, yeah, I'm afraid it needs a bit more than that as an explanation.

Battleforger
12-17-2014, 09:16 AM
When the author of the game says it works that way, it worked that way the entirety of the prior edition, and it appears from my reading of the rules as written that there's no extremely specific limits as to what can and can't counter, and some of the commonest examples in the genre include people doing what you're objecting to, yeah, I'm afraid it needs a bit more than that as an explanation.

whatever

Oculus
12-17-2014, 02:16 PM
If someone wants to counter shit, he has to have the COUNTER to it, not the exactly same power. Water counters fire, fire counters plants, plants counter earth and so on - we all played pokemon i think.
So, by your example an earth controller cannot counter an earthquake? A fire controller cannot put out a fire? A dragon type attack isn't super effective against a dragon type Pokemon? It seems you are being narrow-minded.

Darkdreamer
12-19-2014, 09:15 AM
So, by your example an earth controller cannot counter an earthquake? A fire controller cannot put out a fire? A dragon type attack isn't super effective against a dragon type Pokemon? It seems you are being narrow-minded.

As I said, when you commonly see the two water controllers doing things that mechanically can't be expressed as anything but countering in the game rules, I think the intent is obvious, but I think at this point Battleforger has backed himself into a corner enough continuing it with him is pointless. He's decided that's how it is, has pretty much drawn his line in the sand as to what's needed to convince him otherwise, and nothing else need apply.

Battleforger
12-19-2014, 09:48 AM
I dont really see the reason why 1. you two continue to argue, although i clearly stated that i dont give a fuck anymore (though i will answer when accused, asked or bitched about) and 2. Why the hell you think that an environmental attack could counter something. The power in question wasnt Element Control, it was Environment. Thats like trying to counter a storm with a fluffy cloud. His EC is rank 2, its hilariously weak and has no inherent force to push anything away. I was asked not to make this a big deal, but it seems some people just cant shut the fuck up and leave it be. Would you now so kind and stop annoying me?

P.S. and no, i still havent insulted anyone.

FuzzyBoots
12-19-2014, 10:03 AM
Folks, I think we've discussed this to death. I think we'd best back off before any moderators step in.