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Allensh
12-06-2014, 09:33 PM
As I understand it, the progression for females of the species goes like this:

Dragonling, "Drake" (males stop at this stage), Dragon, High Dragon

Looking through all three Gamemaster's Guides, I do not find stats for the Dragon. The other three are present.

This might be something to think about for that Ultimate Edition.

Allen

eliastion
12-07-2014, 02:50 AM
I might be wrong, but the status of Wyvern seems to be somewhat hazy - it could be that the creature is in fact the true final form for males if they happen to live long enough.

I'm a bit more convinced about the drake - I'm pretty sure female dragons go dragonling->dragon, drake being a male-only form. In the game we encounter more drakes due to the fact that they stick to adult females' lairs usually while adult females probably just leave the nest once they get their wings, going on the journey to create their own lair.
Also - according to codex - female dragons take longer to mature than males.

As historically dragons were considered a couple different species, it could be that the mistake still lingers and in fact there is no such species as wyvern and the "evolution" goes:
dragonling->dragon->high dragon (for females)
dragonling->drake->wyvern (for males)

Note that drakes have almost-wings on their front legs, they in fact look a lot like almost-wyverns. Also, Kolgrim states that he creates the reaver-starting-pack shot from wyvern blood...
Wyverns would probably be what happens if the male lives long enough (or "too long" if you will) and gets more time to grow - since we know females keep growing after becoming adult dragons, why not males. Then, if solitary, they go to "protect territory" mode, but without a female, lair and young to actually protect they become the destructive monsters we generally know them as. Or it could be that they don't get along with younger males and are driven out by the female after reaching this stage.
Also, wyverns would be more common than high dragons due to the fact that males generally mature faster - so a male has much better chances to grow to wyvern than female to get to high dragon stage.

Not that it actually changes the fact that we don't have stats for a dragon that's not quite yet the mythological tonw-eating beast, but I figured I'd share my thoughts ;)

DrawGreeny
12-07-2014, 03:45 AM
I'll leave the speculation about wyverns to Eliastion. He's right about there being only 3 stages to a female dragon's life cycle, though: it's dragonling-->dragon-->high dragon, with drakes strictly being the mature form of male dragonlings.

As for the missing stats for a regular dragon, that *does* sound like an oversight. Hopefully, Green Ronin will give us those stats later (either in Ultimate Edition, or perhaps in its own PDF). Until then, you could just start with the stats for a drake, but add flying (and thus a flying speed) to its abilities. You probably want to bump up its Strength and Constitution by one or two points each, and give it another 40-50 health (since I get the impression that dragons are bigger than drakes). Finally, you might consider adding the Roar and Buffet powers (found in the High Dragon stat block), although you should weaken those abilities a bit; it stands to reason that both of those abilities are easier to resist if a dragon hasn't yet reached her biggest, scariest form.

Jack
12-07-2014, 05:10 AM
Wyverns will be in the collected core because they were in...I can't remember where right now (been a long night), but they were somewhere already. When things die down a bit I'll look into getting those stats and some other Collected Core stuff out to folks who have the sets, but I don't know how we're doing that exactly yet.

But...

I am paying very close attention to the fact that Inquisition has various distinct breeds of dragon so...that's something that will getting more attention in the future.

eliastion
12-07-2014, 08:38 AM
Wyvern has its own PDF in the store http://greenroninstore.com/products/dragon-age-creatures-of-thedas-the-wyvern-pdf
Unfortunately, I don't really know the contents, must base my speculation on what I read in wiki ;)

Allensh
12-07-2014, 09:39 AM
After research, I agree with the idea that for females it goes dragonling-dragon-high dragon.

Allen

Allensh
12-07-2014, 09:41 AM
I am paying very close attention to the fact that Inquisition has various distinct breeds of dragon so...that's something that will getting more attention in the future.

It may just be that dragons and high dragons "evolve" individually, rather than uniformly, if that makes any sense. I did notice that as well (as I get repeatedly killed by the things - still haven't managed to beat one.)

Allen

DrawGreeny
12-07-2014, 10:36 AM
I was just thinking--it would be kind of interesting to run a game in which the PCs learn of a nearby town that has been overrun by drakes. They go and find the best (and most fireproof) armor and weapons they can get their hands on and journey to the village...only to discover that it has been taken over by a bunch of highly aggressive (but otherwise ordinary) male ducks.

eliastion
12-07-2014, 10:51 AM
There is something scary in the fact that half the ducklings in the world have potential to become drakes.

Tiger's Heart
12-07-2014, 12:21 PM
In DA:Inquisition there are a few more creatures based in the Wyvern group as well as the introduction of other creature types like the Phoenix. Wyvern's are definitely distinct to Dragons, although they may share a common origin.
As Jack has said the dragons are all different - based upon their location and then having different immunities and breath weapons. It will be good to see what ends up in the Ultimate edition.

I know I am way behind on work on the Esoterica of Thedas: Volume 5 Almanac, but given the huge amount of new material introduced in DA:I, and the imminent "Official" Ultimate book, I may just hold off to see what gaps need filling rather than doubling up on stuff - unless, of course, Jack can say what's not in the book... And there are some amazing new Nugs as well...

Until then, the parts of the Almanac that are done can be found following the links in my sig. [Apparently sigs are not being visible so here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/k2o8apfsb7ek3u5/AABEK-_PXXqEBf9YUWPXCFQSa?dl=0]


Tiger's Heart.

Jack
12-07-2014, 04:49 PM
Note that while wyvern will be in the collected core, we'll likely be waiting for an Inquisition-era sourcebook for all the various subtypes of drake, dragon, etc... These might be templates or they might be entries of their own...not sure yet. A lot of that will likely depend on how much other stuff we'd be including in such a product (current answer: a lot).

Horvagab
12-08-2014, 01:40 AM
What's interesting is that dragonlings are all firebreathers, even when near a different element dragon. Wonder what that could mean from an evolution/biology standpoint....

OzMills
12-08-2014, 02:06 AM
I believe it's...

Male:
Egg > Dragonling > Drake

Female
Egg > Dragonling > Dragon > High Dragon

Sexual dimorphism is a thing. :)

OzMills
12-08-2014, 05:51 AM
What's interesting is that dragonlings are all firebreathers, even when near a different element dragon. Wonder what that could mean from an evolution/biology standpoint....

It means "Hey we don't have time to balance this shit with a million different damage types"

eliastion
12-08-2014, 06:30 AM
Or "it works on magic and once you have lyrium-ibued bad breath it doesn't need to be fire".
In fact it could even be conscious choice and/or require some additional effort to obtain something other than "basic" fire breath. If you consider them breathing magic rather than fire, it would definitely make sense that a smart dragon can choose and switch to something better (in his opinion). And fire would just be basic for ones that don't feel like experimenting or are little more than feral beasts (which seems to be the case for young dragons).
Fire is in DA the basic "i-want-to-hurt-it" kind of energy, the Rage demons appear as primitive creatures made of flames.

Jack
12-08-2014, 07:27 AM
It means "Hey we don't have time to balance this shit with a million different damage types"

This is likely the real reason, yes. :)

Though there might be some cool "eventually the dragon evolves based on various factors to develop a unique breath weapon" and such. I'll honestly almost certainly just be flat out asking Bioware about this when we look to doing more things with the different dragon types.

DrawGreeny
12-08-2014, 03:33 PM
On a slightly tangential note, it's interesting that all of the Old Gods/Archdemons are (as I understand it) male--yet they take the forms of high dragons, which are exclusively female.

vonpenguin
12-08-2014, 06:02 PM
Or "it works on magic and once you have lyrium-ibued bad breath it doesn't need to be fire".
In fact it could even be conscious choice and/or require some additional effort to obtain something other than "basic" fire breath. If you consider them breathing magic rather than fire, it would definitely make sense that a smart dragon can choose and switch to something better (in his opinion). And fire would just be basic for ones that don't feel like experimenting or are little more than feral beasts (which seems to be the case for young dragons).
Fire is in DA the basic "i-want-to-hurt-it" kind of energy, the Rage demons appear as primitive creatures made of flames.

Dragons in this setting are animal level intelligence. Any unnatural changes in their breath is probably not intentional (Or at the very least be the result of trial and error after they find out they can).

eliastion
12-08-2014, 08:53 PM
You're talking about small dragons. When it comes to high dragons, things get uncertain. It's implied in lore that they COULD be sentient and at the very least they are VERY clever animals - and we know that there are some animals on Earth that purposefully use tools.

As for draconic sentience itself, this question has never been answered. Dragon cultists believe our monstrous lizards to be gods. Less... fanatical people tend to lean towards "extremely clever animals" but the existence of dragon cults breeds problems - they live in lairs, dragon actually permits them to stay there - why? The beast even allows cultists to kill some of her young for blood. "Andraste" apparently even allowed Colgrim to drain HER OWN blood to be spilled on ashes. And, besides, it seems the dragon herself actually wanted those ashes. If not killed, she finally acquires them (the expedition finds no ashes and no dragon) - it kinda seems as if she nested in this particular mountain solely because it brought her closer (literally as well as figuratively) to the urn...

We don't know enough to assert that high dragons are sentient creatures but saying that they are definitely no more than animals is equally (if not more) unsupported. We just don't know that. Especially since in-universe scholars don't know either. http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Dragon_Cults
For all we know, it might be that we even "heard" dragon language in one of the comics http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/File:Dragonic.png