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Supi
10-26-2014, 03:23 AM
hello there

i read about immunity 10 against mental

is this correct and possible?

you get immunity vs mind reading/mental blasts/mind control?

i dont like the idea to get complete immune vs mental powers with a 10 point immunity

badpenny
10-26-2014, 06:19 AM
This is correct. Immunity to all Will effects is 30 points. Immunity to Mental effects is 10 points. Immunity to Mental Damage is 5 points. Various individual effects, e.g. Mind Control or Telepathty typically costs 2 points.

These costs are only guidelines, and they can be disallowed as well. So if in your game mental powers are very common, the Immunity to Mental effects might cost more (say 20 points) or not be allowed at all.

You can also require that Immunities to a class of effects, e.g. Mental, Fire, etc. are taken with the Limitation: Half-effect only, so that you get some protection from the effect, but that you are not outright immune.

Supi
10-26-2014, 07:38 AM
Thanks for your feedback

It sounds little bit imbalanced

I'm the gamemaster and plans to throw in some exotic enemies. No regular ones

But some evil masterbrain could use telepathy and mind control and because its ii n my universe a rare power, it will be very boring if a player is immune against it. You always get a resistance check

@ontopic
10 points to get immune vs mental blast and mind reading and mental control? With 10 points?
And 2 points to be immune against mind control?

Another question: a mind blast gets blocked by enough impervious armor? Only ignored it uses another resistance?

badpenny
10-26-2014, 08:05 AM
Thanks for your feedback

It sounds little bit imbalanced

You're the boss. Raise the cost or ban it.


But some evil masterbrain could use telepathy and mind control and because its ii n my universe a rare power, it will be very boring if a player is immune against it. You always get a resistance check

If a player really wants to be Immune, you could try allowing Half Immunity. A 10 rank Mental Blast only has half effect (DC 20 instead of DC 25), so there's still some chance the PC could feel it.


10 points to get immune vs mental blast and mind reading and mental control? With 10 points?
And 2 points to be immune against mind control?

Mental powers are just another descriptor like Fire powers, Technology, etc. As I said, if these powers are very common in your game, you can increase the cost of any Immunity. Make it cost 20 points!


Another question: a mind blast gets blocked by enough impervious armor? Only ignored it uses another resistance?

"Mind Blast" typically means using the Alternate Resistance: Will Extra so Impervious Toughness wouldn't apply since they have to resist with another Defense. If they had Impervious Will, it would apply against the Mind Blast.

Rev. Pee Kitty
10-26-2014, 01:13 PM
It's important to realize that M&M tends to use "mental" and "psionic" as synonyms -- which I find very confusing as well. So when you see "Immunity to Mental Powers," that does not mean that the character is immune to anything that affects the mind! It means he is immune only to abilities that are explicitly purchased as psionic ("mental") abilities.

For example, he'd be completely immune to mental/psionic Mind Reading, but he'd have no special defense whatsoever against the following:


magical Mind Reading
mutant-powered Mind Reading
nanotech Mind Reading
talented Mind Reading (e.g., "I understand body language so well that I can figure out what you're thinking")
cosmic Mind Reading
. . . and so on.

Does that make sense?

FuzzyBoots
10-26-2014, 01:42 PM
Also, because it occasionally comes up, people locating you via Telepathy will still be possible unless you also purchase Concealment (Mental).

Supi
10-27-2014, 03:07 AM
oh, then a mind immunity has to be specified?

mind immunity psychic?

mind immunity technology?

immunity telepathy Mutation?

if someone makes a mind blast instead of a fire blast (same pp costs) then it triggers another immunity (fire or mind in this case)?

FuzzyBoots
10-27-2014, 05:30 AM
oh, then a mind immunity has to be specified?

mind immunity psychic?

mind immunity technology?

immunity telepathy Mutation?

if someone makes a mind blast instead of a fire blast (same pp costs) then it triggers another immunity (fire or mind in this case)?

More along the lines of that you're blocking a specific category. Generally, it's descriptors. Sometimes, it's a type of power. The cost is based off of how common the power is, so broader immunities tend to cost more.

Muddying the waters a bit, "Immunity (Mental effects)" also kind of dates from when Mental was a +0 Extra that you could add or remove from powers that included a single degree of subtle, but was worthless against anything without a Will save or, of course, anything with the appropriate Immunity. I would personally shade towards treating Mental as a Psionic descriptor. So yes, you would need separate immunities to cover things like nanobots rewriting your mind or a very persuasive salesman using More Than Mind Control to just talk you into changing your mind.

badpenny
10-27-2014, 07:45 AM
oh, then a mind immunity has to be specified?

mind immunity psychic?

mind immunity technology?

immunity telepathy Mutation?

if someone makes a mind blast instead of a fire blast (same pp costs) then it triggers another immunity (fire or mind in this case)?

Immunities (for the most part) work against descriptors, e.g. Fire, Ice, Magic, Technology, etc. So if you were Immune to Mind Control, then it doesn't matter what form it takes, that one power does not work on you. If you are Immune to Fire effects, then it doesn't matter whether it's magic fire, environmental fire (like naturally occurring fire).

But when you start to get to specific descriptors, then effects from those other descriptors can affect you. So if you are Immune to Magic effects (20 points), and you get hit with a Hellfire blast, you are Immune. But if the Human Torch blasts you--the effect not being magical--then you are affected normally.

Back to mental: if you are Immune to Mental effects, that would include Mind Control with a mental descriptor. But if someone came along with a biological mind control, you could still be affected by that.

Supi
10-27-2014, 09:26 AM
ah ok then my problem is solved

its impossible for an player to get a mind shield vs every power description

btw: is there a full list of immunities? the examples in the players handbook are good but sometimes confusing or some stuff (like Mind) is missing or only a broader term is mentioned

digitalangel
10-27-2014, 09:52 AM
It's important to realize that M&M tends to use "mental" and "psionic" as synonyms -- which I find very confusing as well. So when you see "Immunity to Mental Powers," that does not mean that the character is immune to anything that affects the mind! It means he is immune only to abilities that are explicitly purchased as psionic ("mental") abilities.

For example, he'd be completely immune to mental/psionic Mind Reading, but he'd have no special defense whatsoever against the following:


magical Mind Reading
mutant-powered Mind Reading
nanotech Mind Reading
talented Mind Reading (e.g., "I understand body language so well that I can figure out what you're thinking")
cosmic Mind Reading
. . . and so on.

Does that make sense?

That is a reason why you clarify things with your GM when a character gets apporved. For the 10 point Immunity are you buying Immunity to Psionics/Psychic powers or are you buying immunity to powers that target your mind. Both would be valid as long as the player and teh GM interpret it the same way when the character is approved.

Personally if I write Immunity (Mental effects) on a sheet I expect it to keep (most) things from messing with the character's head, but a mind blast, telekenesis, etc I'm still fair game. If I write Immunity (Psychic/Psionic effects) then I'd expect a mentalist to me fairly powerless against me (short of pulling out a pistol) but fair game for magic/drug/tech based mental tampering.

The fact that M&M descriptors are so important is something that took a bit of getting used to coming from other systems, but once you learn to clarify things with your GM when you get the character approved, it also gives you the flexibility to do almost anything you want given sufficient points to pay for it.

badpenny
10-27-2014, 10:26 AM
its impossible for an player to get a mind shield vs every power description

Well, first "Mind Shield" could mean different things to different people. It could mean Immunity, or Second Chance (Will checks against mental effects), or Impervious Will.


btw: is there a full list of immunities? the examples in the players handbook are good but sometimes confusing or some stuff (like Mind) is missing or only a broader term is mentioned

In all the years of the old ATT board, someone might have put together an exhaustive list, but you'd have to search for it. Generally, the category is what's priced, not the particular Immunity. I mentioned some price points above.

Supi
10-29-2014, 09:25 AM
Mind Shield
You possess a mental “shield” protecting your mind
from outside influences. Because it is sustained, you can
perform power stunts with your mind shield, including
setting a Mind Trap (following) or “extending” your shield,
an Alternate Effect applying Area and Affects Others,
granting a lesser Will bonus to others over an area.
Mind Shield: Enhanced Defense (Will), Impervious, Limited to
Mental Powers, Sustained • 1 point per rank.


Mind Shield
Your armor is attuned to aid you in resisting mental attacks
(generally Will resisted effects with a mental, psionic, or
psychic descriptor; see the Mental Powers profile).
Mind Shield: Enhanced Impervious Will, Limited to Mental
Effects • 1 point per rank
Alternately, your armor’s systems might “screen out”
some specific mental effect or from mental influences in
general. If your armor only partially filters such things,
Limit the Immunity to half effect.
Mind Shield: Immunity 5 (one mental power, such as psychic
mind control) or Immunity 10 (all psychic or psionic mental
powers) • 5 or 10 points

ok that i understand this correct ^^

mind shield with immunity 10 (all psychic powers) does mean immune to all psychic mind control/ psychic damage/psychic mind reading?
but no magic mind control/magic mind reading?

the other Shield 1 per rank is only enhanced will save/resistance?

FuzzyBoots
10-29-2014, 09:36 AM
the other Shield 1 per rank is only enhanced will save/resistance?
And Impervious. Which means that effects of half of the rank and below fail without a save. Unfortunately, 3E Impervious is less than useful as PL increases.

badpenny
10-29-2014, 09:48 AM
There are additional options for how to run Impervious in the Armor Powers Profile. I think 3e RAW Impervious is wholly unjustified in cost.

Think about Half-Immunity. Players can feel like they're extra resistant to certain effects and GMs know they won't always make those resistance checks.

Supi
10-29-2014, 10:01 AM
its really interesting

i missed the fact that powers have different natures and so different immunities/resistances

so if you are immune to fire than you have to declare which fire

the magic fire
the psychic fire
the natural fire
the cosmic fire...

only immunity vs heat is without this? if im immune vs heat (environment condition) than i can stand in a nuclear sauna and dont get hindered by the heat

or does this need to be clarified too? immune to which kind of heat?

kariggi
10-29-2014, 10:06 AM
One of the nice aspects of this game I think is that you and your GM get to define that. The broader the descriptor the greater the cost, all Fire would cost more than Mystical Fire. You only have to define it as narrowly as you like (or want to spend points on).

FuzzyBoots
10-29-2014, 10:11 AM
Not at all. You can pick your immunities by type, by descriptor, or however else your GM lets you slice it. Immunity (Magic) is valid, and generally hits the 10 pp cost level depending on how common magic is in your world. Immunity (Fire damage) would be about 5 pp and would cover any source of fire. Similarly, you could have Immunity (Mental) which would protect against psionic attacks (pretty much anything that forces a resistance check) or Immunity (Mind Control), which would protect you from any form of Mind Control whether it's psychic, nanotech, or car salesmen.

:) I think the disconnect here is that you're thinking of Mental as "anything related to the mind", which is a lot closer to Immunity (Will) with some quirks. Immunity (Will) is 30 pp.

digitalangel
10-29-2014, 10:12 AM
its really interesting

i missed the fact that powers have different natures and so different immunities/resistances

so if you are immune to fire than you have to declare which fire

the magic fire
the psychic fire
the natural fire
the cosmic fire...

only immunity vs heat is without this? if im immune vs heat (environment condition) than i can stand in a nuclear sauna and dont get hindered by the heat

or does this need to be clarified too? immune to which kind of heat?

Immunity to fire for 10 points would cover all of those or any other effect with fire as part of it's descriptor. It would not necessarily protect your from a smoke or heat related power that was not based on fire though.

Immunity 10 (heat effects) would cover some types of fire as well as heat based Afflictions (heat stroke/fatigue/etc) including possibly some heat based illusions (traditional mirage in a desert)

Immunity (10-20 depending on setting)(magic) would cover anything with a magic descriptor (including magic fire), but a zippo would still burn you



Remember that powers can (of often really should) fall under more than 1 descriptor. Magic fire is not 1 descriptor (to a lot of GMs, not all) it is both fire and magic, so Immunity to either would save the target. It also means that a weakness to either raises the target's DC possibly by more than normal if they have a weakness against both fire and against magic.

Darkdreamer
10-30-2014, 10:47 AM
There are additional options for how to run Impervious in the Armor Powers Profile. I think 3e RAW Impervious is wholly unjustified in cost.


Yeah, I never understood that; it, at best, seemed to be fixing a few degenerate cases. As it is, there's no point in lower end Impervious, and even higher end Impervious is usually useless and vastly overpriced when it isn't.