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View Full Version : Another attempt an an All or Nothing Attack



Jhyarelle79
10-22-2014, 12:39 AM
So in practice here's my taken on Kyle's suggestion of Infinite Mass Punch.

IMP ver 3.0: All-Out Attack,Pow Attack, Extraordinary Effort, Improved Aim, Improved Critical 4, Luck 3, Immunity (Self-harm), Penetrating Strength based Damage 1, Tiring = 13 CP

Speedster has:
Strength 1
Unarmed +9

With MIP ver 3.0 this should happen

AOA: reduces my active def, buffs my attack roll bonus (+14 to hit, Damage 2)
Pow Att: reduces my attack roll bonus, buffs my damage out put (+9 to hit Damage 7)
Imp Aim: adds 10 to attack roll at the cost of a standard action (+19 to hit Damage 7)
Extra Effort (Slam Att): -2 to att roll +2 Damage out put moving at full speed (+17 to hit Damage 9)
2nd Extra Effort: up grades original bonus damage to 5 [IOW: really adds a +3] (+17 to hit Damage 12)
Luck 3: is my insurance policy from All Sate, Geico, Progressive
and
Imp Crit 4: is just there to add insult to injury and pour salt to open wounds

So IMP ver 3.0 +17 to hit, Penetrating Damage 12? Also since majority of the extra damage are circumstantial bonuses from Advantages are they counted as Penetrating as well? I'm asking cause technically there is only 1 rank of Penetrating in the formula.
So this is still within PL limits...technically right?

badpenny
10-22-2014, 06:42 AM
Wow, does that seem complicated. Okay, question: why not just buy ranks of Damage and Flaw it with Tiring and Distracting? If you want to push past PL caps, add Multiattack. I'm dubious about how valuable Penetrating is, but WTF, throw it in.


Damage 10 (Extras: Multiattack, Penetrating 10; Flaws: Distracting, Tiring) for 15pp

If that's not enough Damage, you can still Power Attack. Note that some GM's are dubious about combining both All-Out Attack and Power Attack at full value without some restrictions.

Penetrating is an iffy value. It's really only worth anything if you're up against someone who has tons of Impervious and you otherwise wouldn't be able to get near them (even with Power Attack). That's a pretty rare occurrence. Also, you only get as many ranks of Penetrating as you buy; it doesn't expand with things like Power Attack or Multiattack.

FuzzyBoots
10-22-2014, 07:09 AM
To give this some context, this question is spread over http://roninarmy.com/threads/1177-How-does-Tiring-flaw-really-work-and-how-to-make-a-good-active-in-game-active-complication and http://roninarmy.com/threads/1168-More-Speedster-Tactics-Query-Deflect-Reflect-All-Out-Attack-Multiple-Attacks. Jhyarelle79, you really don't need to keep posting new topics. Just pick one and stick with it, please.

badpenny
10-22-2014, 07:13 AM
If the OP in this thread is the distillation of those threads, I'd be too scared to read them...because that's one complicated build.

FuzzyBoots
10-22-2014, 07:26 AM
The basic concept is fairly simple, trying to build a PL-breaking attack that can only be used in extreme situations. The rest is sugar.

JDRook
10-22-2014, 08:53 AM
This sounds exactly like the kind of attack that should be a power stunt anyway. Keep all your notes, clear it with your GM, but don't put it on your character sheet. Any attack you don't expect to use at least once per combat doesn't need to purchased, IMHO. If this is a big devastating hail-mary attack that you would only use against the world-cracking Big Bad, you will have time to build the stunt at the table if need be, and tailor it to the situation instead of trying to predict the worst case scenario and plan for it before the game's even begun.

I also think that making the megaultrapunch 5000 ahead of time for whatever character is anticlimactic (or reverse-climactic, if there's a word for that). This is obviously based on Flash's Lightning Punch or his around-the-world clothesline attacks, but the reason that was so epic is that 1) he'd never done that before because 1a) he'd never needed to do that before. Narratively speaking, it's much more interesting that he had to push himself beyond his expected limits and practically destroy himself than it would have been if you'd always known he had a nuke in his back pocket.

TL;DR Don't design his final move before you play him.

badpenny
10-22-2014, 08:55 AM
TL;DR Don't design his final move before you play him.

Actually, that wasn't TL;DR at all. Nicely said.

Lantalia
10-22-2014, 04:09 PM
Penetrating is an iffy value. It's really only worth anything if you're up against someone who has tons of Impervious and you otherwise wouldn't be able to get near them (even with Power Attack). That's a pretty rare occurrence. Also, you only get as many ranks of Penetrating as you buy; it doesn't expand with things like Power Attack or Multiattack.

Multiattack explicitly applies after the impervious/penetrating step in working out damage.

The calculation should work out as:

Add all damage bonuses except Multiattack.
Check to see if your damage is high enough to bypass impervious.
If it isn't and you don't have penetrating ranks, you are now done.
If it isn't and you do have penetrating ranks, replace your damage with the min of your penetrating ranks or remaining damage.
Add in the damage from Multiattack, if applicable.

So yah, in this case, penetrating 1 isn't all that helpful, if it applies, you shouldn't have done the power attack and what not.

saint_matthew
10-22-2014, 07:53 PM
The basic concept is fairly simple, trying to build a PL-breaking attack that can only be used in extreme situations. The rest is sugar.

In that case throw in some linked Weaken Toughness as well, since we are gaming the system rather than playing the game. :)

Kyle
10-23-2014, 12:59 AM
In that case throw in some linked Weaken Toughness as well, since we are gaming the system rather than playing the game. :)

Why not do both?

Personally, I'd like for there to be more legitimate ways for characters to exceed PL caps in a significant way, as it's very thematically appropriate. Those moments of last ditch desperation where the hero puts everything they have left into one final gambit are a staple of superhero fiction. Those moments are also one of the few areas where M&M doesn't really manage to capture the feel of superhero fiction without resorting to exploiting the rules to a level that verges on abusive. Extra Effort on it's own just doesn't really cut it, and while you can do a lot with creative narration and descriptions, there's something to be said about generating really high numbers with the roll of a die.

saint_matthew
10-23-2014, 01:48 AM
Personally, I'd like for there to be more legitimate ways for characters to exceed PL caps in a significant way, as it's very thematically appropriate.

There already is: For a speedster it would be Slam, combined with there normal strike damage, with improved power attack: Straight off the bat a damage effect of potentially 17 (strike 10, +1 for slam, +1 for moving at your top speed in a slam, + 5 improved power attack damage, - 5 power attack atk roll). That's without the use of extra effort which can raise the level of damage by +1 in like three different ways for this specific attack (speed, power or straight up strength)

And then you as a speedster have to save versus half the damage output you just put out & fatigue if you use Extra Effort: Got to love system mastery.

Edit: Please feel free to correct me if you see any errors in my mathematics, it has been known to happen. :)

Jhyarelle79
10-23-2014, 02:53 AM
Why not do both?

Personally, I'd like for there to be more legitimate ways for characters to exceed PL caps in a significant way, as it's very thematically appropriate. Those moments of last ditch desperation where the hero puts everything they have left into one final gambit are a staple of superhero fiction. Those moments are also one of the few areas where M&M doesn't really manage to capture the feel of superhero fiction without resorting to exploiting the rules to a level that verges on abusive. Extra Effort on it's own just doesn't really cut it, and while you can do a lot with creative narration and descriptions, there's something to be said about generating really high numbers with the roll of a die.

Thank you. You so far are the only on who understands what I'm trying to do, though it needs some work. I'm not trying to break the game, but I'm sure as hell gonna give it every thing my PC has if I'm backed into a corner at the 13th hour. Exactly like what Flash did in Justice League Unlimited where he ran around the world so fast gathering momentum to slam on to Brainiac/Luther. After the attack,he was so exhausted that he was pulled into the Speed Force and it took the the most of the League to get him back.

saint_matthew
10-23-2014, 03:54 AM
After the attack,he was so exhausted that he was pulled into the Speed Force and it took the the most of the League to get him back.

That would be a complication. :)

badpenny
10-23-2014, 06:35 AM
What the OP is failing to understand is that what you see/read in fiction has to be interpreted as where it intersects the plot and is this something the character routinely does. That all or nothing effort of the Flash's is best served by working something out with the GM, not statting something up ahead of time. This is a power stunt, pure and simple, probably with some optional rules thrown in, e.g. Last-Ditch Effort option from 2e's Mastermind Manual where you trade damage levels for Extra Effort (once you've used Extraordinary Effort), etc.

There's not really a way to build a power that breaks PL and has a GM signing off on it being a regular part of your sheet. I'd simply tell you save it for when it happens because your GM is the one who's going to be triggering the event.

saint_matthew
10-23-2014, 06:44 AM
What the OP is failing to understand is that what you see/read in fiction has to be interpreted as where it intersects the plot and is this something the character routinely does. That all or nothing effort of the Flash's is best served by working something out with the GM, not statting something up ahead of time. This is a power stunt, pure and simple, probably with some optional rules thrown in, e.g. Last-Ditch Effort option from 2e's Mastermind Manual where you trade damage levels for Extra Effort (once you've used Extraordinary Effort), etc.

There's not really a way to build a power that breaks PL and has a GM signing off on it being a regular part of your sheet. I'd simply tell you save it for when it happens because your GM is the one who's going to be triggering the event.

Yes and kind of: You can certainly max out your damage for the first part: For a speedster it would be Slam, combined with there normal strike damage, with improved power attack: Straight off the bat a damage effect of potentially 17 (strike 10, +1 for slam, +1 for moving at your top speed in a slam, + 5 improved power attack damage, - 5 power attack atk roll). That's without the use of extra effort which can raise the level of damage by +1 in like three different ways for this specific attack (speed, power or straight up strength).

Of course that's not going outside the power level structure so its powerful without being over powered & also not something you'd do every day.

But the second part of sucked into the speed force, or something like that is pure story like you pointed out & as you pointed out requires no specific mechanics outside of whatever your GM say it does & keeping in mind that you can always tap complications on your own (if your GM is the type that allows that).

Jhyarelle79
10-23-2014, 10:37 AM
What the OP is failing to understand is that what you see/read in fiction has to be interpreted as where it intersects the plot and is this something the character routinely does. That all or nothing effort of the Flash's is best served by working something out with the GM, not statting something up ahead of time. This is a power stunt, pure and simple, probably with some optional rules thrown in, e.g. Last-Ditch Effort option from 2e's Mastermind Manual where you trade damage levels for Extra Effort (once you've used Extraordinary Effort), etc.

There's not really a way to build a power that breaks PL and has a GM signing off on it being a regular part of your sheet. I'd simply tell you save it for when it happens because your GM is the one who's going to be triggering the event.


OK. You saying don't bother. At least that what I'm getting. But if I don't design and record what the the ultimate attack can do now, and I don't have edict memory (Me, not MnM PC :p ) then what do I say to the GM when the time arrives where I want to execute this Ultimate Attack in game.

"Uhhhhh! Give me a few minutes while I make up an Ultimate "One-Shot" attack out of nowhere that might kill me or take me out of commission, leaving me vulnerable to the baddies should the Ultimate fail."

saint_matthew
10-23-2014, 05:03 PM
OK. You saying don't bother. At least that what I'm getting. But if I don't design and record what the the ultimate attack can do now, and I don't have edict memory (Me, not MnM PC :p ) then what do I say to the GM when the time arrives where I want to execute this Ultimate Attack in game.

"Uhhhhh! Give me a few minutes while I make up an Ultimate "One-Shot" attack out of nowhere that might kill me or take me out of commission, leaving me vulnerable to the baddies should the Ultimate fail."

Really? Because I just gave you a way to get your attack up to 17... The "it might kill me" part of the equation is simply a complication.

Kasseopea
10-23-2014, 05:27 PM
The OP seems to be a little too complicated. So i guess its PL10.

First off - our GM prohibits to use multiple maneuvers at the same time (like all-out-attack + power attack) since its getting a tad rediculous at that point. Besides - i would handle the IMP just like the Anime did - if you bring up infinite mass and such massive acceleration, have fun kissing the next brickwall/tank/powerhouse/planet that you are going to hit if you ever miss your target, because i sure as hell would let you just casually stop afterwards.

Anyways as for PL10 damage - Strike/Blast Lv20 (trade-off with toughness) + Power Attack + Multiattack + Critical + 15 base. This gives you 50 damage, -5 attack and toughness = 0. Problem is though - if you use this kind of attacks, you will utterly destroy a villain or two, then your GM will say "Hmm, alright, so i have an ultra-damage character in my party, lets throw at him something his size" and before you know whats happening you are fighting a Chimeratech Overdragon that is going to rip through the rest of your team, because he was fit out to mess with a character that deals 50 damage per hit and not PL10 and then you miss once or twice and die as well.

Limit-Breaks are fun but need limitations strong enough to hold one back from using them too often. Personally using guaranteed side-effects with either 2nd-3rd degree damage or some extreme condition like "blind".

TL;DR - yes, you can deal uber-mega-hyper-super-ultra-damage and fire some planet-buster-class weapon out of your pinky finger, but it will just force an equivalent enemy and artificially raise the stakes or make the gameplay too easy.

JDRook
10-23-2014, 06:31 PM
OK. You saying don't bother. At least that what I'm getting. But if I don't design and record what the the ultimate attack can do now, and I don't have edict memory (Me, not MnM PC :p ) then what do I say to the GM when the time arrives where I want to execute this Ultimate Attack in game.

"Uhhhhh! Give me a few minutes while I make up an Ultimate "One-Shot" attack out of nowhere that might kill me or take me out of commission, leaving me vulnerable to the baddies should the Ultimate fail."

That actually brings in the other side of the equation, which is the GM. If the GM sets up the plot so that you end up fighting the Mega-Big-Bad before you've had a chance to really establish your character's combat and play-style (including playing around with tricky or challenging situations where you might need to improvise a power stunt or two) and the ONLY way to defeat him is a byzantine power build you couldn't possibly figure out in the heat of the moment, that strikes me as poor GMing. Your character should grow throughout play and the GM should provide those opportunities for growth without killing your character (but possibly coming very close occasionally, or it's not as exciting). Your character may even lose the occasional fight, which happens all the time in the source media, barely getting away in one piece but with better knowledge of your opponent.

This doesn't even bring in the third element of the equation, the rest of your team. Unless you're playing a solo game, there are going to be other players with varying abilities and a good GM will try to set up situations where you are more likely to succeed working together as opposed to going it alone, particularly against the MBB. One guy stealing the spotlight might be okay a maximum of 1 time, but there should be a time to shine for everyone and hopefully some team glory as well, or the other players aren't going to enjoy playing.

Now don't get me wrong. I think playing with ways to make powerful attacks can be fun, and even useful, but I absolutely don't believe it is vital. Build your PC to game spec, write your backstory and complications, make a wish list of traits you might want to develop in the future and just play it without trying to flip to the end of the book.

Kyle
10-23-2014, 08:11 PM
What the OP is failing to understand is that what you see/read in fiction has to be interpreted as where it intersects the plot and is this something the character routinely does. That all or nothing effort of the Flash's is best served by working something out with the GM, not statting something up ahead of time. This is a power stunt, pure and simple, probably with some optional rules thrown in, e.g. Last-Ditch Effort option from 2e's Mastermind Manual where you trade damage levels for Extra Effort (once you've used Extraordinary Effort), etc.

Well, if Jhyarelle79 opts to go with the option I outlined for the Infinite Mass Punch, it's not so much a build as it is a combination of elements that the character would conceivably have used in such a way to produce a fairly effective single-use attack. It's a handful of Advantages and a 2 pp Immunity. Simple.

However, I disagree that a player shouldn't stat something up ahead of time. I usually have a handful of power stunts figured out for my characters ahead of time, precisely because I don't want to slow down the flow of combat. Those abilities might not be part of the actual build, but they're certainly a part of my character. If a situation arises where I want my character to do something that wasn't pre-built, I'd like to think that my system familiarity is high enough that I can do so on the fly without too much disruption, but why wait if it's something I can think of ahead of time?

Why wait until we're at the table to figure out Wolverine's berserker rage, or the Human Torch's "going nova"? If the player wants that option in their back pocket, there's no reason not to figure out what options there when building the character.

Now, I absolutely agree with everyone saying that it should be brought up with the GM, but not in the middle of play.

dream
10-27-2014, 06:48 PM
After years of plotting Powers and Advantages and Skills, I found how to 'One-Shot' PCs & NPCs using the system within PL limits. Takes a combination of things, but it works.

The thing here is WHY? You can put PCs in any position you want by awarding the affected PCs a Hero point. Easy peezy. Why so much mechanical grift vs. a system that DOES NOT invite that sort of thing? As GM, you control the living universe around the players and can, if you will, trap & capture them whenever you want. Ask me;

- floor traps
- riot attacks
- weather attacks
- Complication assault

As GM, nothing is off the board. Just use a Hero point reward and say they're captured/conflicted. Easy.

"Well, I'm a player & want a decisive attack to TKO the worst foe". That's what Hero points are for. You can re-arrange a scene with them AND have greater impact against foes. M&M3 is one of the few games that allows you, as a player, to dismiss what a GM wants and save the day. It's right there in the rules if you look close enough.

I have;)

Real talk; I've had a player Counter a Nuclear Explosion to save the party.

Use. Your. Hero. Points.

And if you get stuck, IM me. I'm the munchkin of GMs.

Game On.