PDA

View Full Version : How does Tiring flaw really work and how to make a good active in game active complication



Jhyarelle79
10-20-2014, 08:36 PM
I'm now having problems in designing my speedster's ultimate attack that emulates Flash's and Superman's Infinite Mass Punch. For dramatic effect I want the user to be exhausted regardless if the attack was successful or not. But however I'm confused by how you calculate the cost of the power as well as how the Tiring flaw works.

I'm also trying to keep the cost down to 20CP as this is the CP cap of an array.

Formula Power Cost = ((base effect costs + extras - flaws) x rank) + flat modifiers

So

Mach 2 Punch = ((Strength based Damage 1 + Penetrating 1 - 1 Tiring flaw) x 9 ranks) + Accurate 1 flat
Mach 2 Punch = Strength based Damage 9, Penetrating, Tiring flaw + Accurate 1

by this calculation this is a Strength based Penetrating Damage 9, Accurate 1 (+2 att roll) costing 10 CP whose effect exhausts the user weather it hits or not right? So doubling this make it a Strength based Penetrating Damage 18, Accurate 2 (+4 att roll) costing 10 CP? Is this OP for a PL 10 speedster.

I'd like also implement fatigue and exhaustion to my complication, cause sometimes our GM forgets to a take his player's complication into the game. I'm not grinding for hero point I just like how idea that that my PC runs out of gas every now and then. Does this mean I should burn through extra efforts a few times a game? I don't want it to be hamper either, just enough to take me out a scene for one turn or two. In this case where recovery time is crucial does 10 ranks of Regeneration decrease the time to recover from fatigue and or exhaustion?

Kyle
10-20-2014, 10:30 PM
I'm now having problems in designing my speedster's ultimate attack that emulates Flash's and Superman's Infinite Mass Punch. For dramatic effect I want the user to be exhausted regardless if the attack was successful or not. But however I'm confused by how you calculate the cost of the power as well as how the Tiring flaw works.

I'm also trying to keep the cost down to 20CP as this is the CP cap of an array.

Formula Power Cost = ((base effect costs + extras - flaws) x rank) + flat modifiers

So

Mach 2 Punch = ((Strength based Damage 1 + Penetrating 1 - 1 Tiring flaw) x 9 ranks) + Accurate 1 flat
Mach 2 Punch = Strength based Damage 9, Penetrating, Tiring flaw + Accurate 1

by this calculation this is a Strength based Penetrating Damage 9, Accurate 1 (+2 att roll) costing 10 CP whose effect exhausts the user weather it hits or not right? So doubling this make it a Strength based Penetrating Damage 18, Accurate 2 (+4 att roll) costing 10 CP? Is this OP for a PL 10 speedster.
Well, you've got the formula figured out, but 18 Damage and +4 Attack would exceed caps for a PL 10 character, even before accounting for whatever the character's strength and regular Attack bonus are. Remember, with the exception of a few exploits, the sum of the Damage and Attack bonus can't exceed twice the PL.

As for Tiring, it's fairly straight forward. When you use an Effect with that flaw, the character gains a Fatigued condition. If the Effect is used a second time, they'd become Exhausted, and then Incapacitated on the third use.


I'd like also implement fatigue and exhaustion to my complication, cause sometimes our GM forgets to a take his player's complication into the game. I'm not grinding for hero point I just like how idea that that my PC runs out of gas every now and then. Does this mean I should burn through extra efforts a few times a game? I don't want it to be hamper either, just enough to take me out a scene for one turn or two. In this case where recovery time is crucial does 10 ranks of Regeneration decrease the time to recover from fatigue and or exhaustion?
The specific details of your complication and how they're going to be integrated into the game are really something you want to discuss with your GM.

Jhyarelle79
10-21-2014, 01:39 AM
Well, you've got the formula figured out, but 18 Damage and +4 Attack would exceed caps for a PL 10 character, even before accounting for whatever the character's strength and regular Attack bonus are. Remember, with the exception of a few exploits, the sum of the Damage and Attack bonus can't exceed twice the PL.

As for Tiring, it's fairly straight forward. When you use an Effect with that flaw, the character gains a Fatigued condition. If the Effect is used a second time, they'd become Exhausted, and then Incapacitated on the third use.


The specific details of your complication and how they're going to be integrated into the game are really something you want to discuss with your GM.

Thanks.

But I'd still like to know if higher rank of Regeneration or Healing reduces fatigue recovery time.
EX: You already used your recovery in an encounter and juts used Extra Effort or a power with Tiring an are now fatigued. You have 10 ranks of Regeneration. How long will it take recover from fatigue?

My under standing of Regeneration 10, you can recover a -1 pen or severe condition every rotation. If it takes an hour to recover from fatigue will a rank 10 Regeneration or Healing reduce that time to say like 30 minutes or at even higher ranks reduce the recovery time to 15 minutes at ranks 20 and higher?

Kyle
10-21-2014, 02:49 AM
Someone might correct me, but as I understand the rules, Regeneration would only removes Damage conditions, so Fatigue from the Tiring Flaw or Extra Effort would not be affected. You need to either spend a hero point, or the character needs an hour of rest to remove Fatigued.

rwknoll
10-21-2014, 06:22 AM
Someone might correct me, but as I understand the rules, Regeneration would only removes Damage conditions, so Fatigue from the Tiring Flaw or Extra Effort would not be affected. You need to either spend a hero point, or the character needs an hour of rest to remove Fatigued.

This is my understanding as well.

The only way to recover faster from fatigue conditions is with a Healing effect with the Energizing extra, and in that situation, the healer takes on the fatigued condition by removing yours. There is also the Psychic Vampirism power from PP: Mental Powers, which technically goes against RAW in the Hero's Handbook but conceptually consists of recovering your own fatigue by transfering it to an enemy.

Darkdreamer
10-21-2014, 09:47 AM
You're both correct. The rules are actually pretty much deliberately written so there's no easy end-run to fatigue effects.

Jhyarelle79
10-21-2014, 02:57 PM
Well, you've got the formula figured out, but 18 Damage and +4 Attack would exceed caps for a PL 10 character, even before accounting for whatever the character's strength and regular Attack bonus are. Remember, with the exception of a few exploits, the sum of the Damage and Attack bonus can't exceed twice the PL.

Ok I think I got this, a PL10 game max attack power is a +10 to attack bonus (before d20 roll) and rank 10 damage (effect) totaling 2x PL right?

My Speedster's unarmed to hit bonus is +9 and I have All-Out Attack Advantage. I adjusted the Infinite Mass Punch to just Penetrating Damage 10. This should mean that with All-Out Attack, I can take a -1 to active defenses to add a +1 to my unarmed attack to make it a +10. Add that to the Penetrating Damage 10, that should total 2x PL right?

rwknoll
10-21-2014, 03:15 PM
Ok I think I got this, a PL10 game max attack power is a +10 to attack bonus (before d20 roll) and rank 10 damage (effect) totaling 2x PL right?

My Speedster's unarmed to hit bonus is +9 and I have All-Out Attack Advantage. I adjusted the Infinite Mass Punch to just Penetrating Damage 10. This should mean that with All-Out Attack, I can take a -1 to active defenses to add a +1 to my unarmed attack to make it a +10. Add that to the Penetrating Damage 10, that should total 2x PL right?

Yes, that's correct. Technically, however, I'm pretty sure you are allowed to break offensive PL caps if you use maneuvers like All-Out Attack. So, a standard recommendation is to have your main powers maxed out at offensive caps before taking maneuvers into consideration.

Kyle
10-21-2014, 04:00 PM
Well, the trade-offs from All-out Attack actually allow you to circumvent the normal level caps.

So, the sum total of your normal Attack and Damage can't exceed the PLx2, but when using All-out Attack you can do so.

If I may make a suggestion...if I understand correctly, your aim is to create a sort of all-or-nothing, last ditch effort attack for your speedster character, right? A power that the character can use to produce a lot of damage, but also physically wears them out?

The way I'd go about building that is to invest in All-out Attack, Power Attack, Extraordinary Effort, Improved Aim, and an Immunity to self-inflicted damage from Slam Attacks. That's four Advantages and a two power point Immunity, so you'd be paying 6 pp.

All-out Attack is an up to +5 Attack / -5 Active Defenses trade-off, as you're aware.
Power Attack is an up to +5 Damage / -5 Attack trade-off
Extraordinary Effort gives you a second use of Extra Effort in a single round
Improved Aim gives you a +10 circumstance bonus on Close Attacks after taking the Aim action
And the Immunity will prevent your character from potentially suffering Damage as a result of performing a Slam Attack

So, all these combine together for your Infinite Mass Punch. It's important to note here that circumstance bonuses are able to exceed normal PL caps.

How this works:
• At the start of your turn, your character's first action will be to Aim. Improved Aim gives them a +10 circumstance bonus to their next Close Attack.
• Then, with Extra Effort, the character performs a Slam Attack. Slam Attacks are a -2 to Attack like a regular Charge, but a +1 circumstance bonus to Damage. There's an additional +1 circumstance bonus to Damage if the character is able to move at their full Speed.
• The second use of Extra Effort will be to upgrade the +2 Damage from the Slam Attack -- assuming your character is able to move their full Speed -- to +5 Damage.
• The slam attack will be combined with All-out Attack and Power Attack for a total trade-off of -5 to Active Defenses and +5 to Damage.

So, at the end, the Infinite Mass Punch would be performed with a +8 to Attack and +10 Damage on top of whatever your regular values are, -5 to Active Defenses, and the character would have the Exhausted Condition. You could also add Penetrating or Improved Crit or whatever as you see fit. Also, a rank or two of Luck wouldn't be a bad idea, because nothing's worse than going for the big, awesome last-ditch attack and having it whiff on a Natural 1.

Obviously this is a really exploitive combination, and isn't the sort of thing that should be used in every combat. However, I'm a big fan those sorts of desperations moves whenever they show-up in the comics, so if I were GMing, I'd be fine with my players using this sort of move in desperation situations.

Jhyarelle79
10-21-2014, 04:10 PM
So, at the end, the Infinite Mass Punch would be performed with a +8 to Attack and +10 Damage on top of whatever your regular values are, -5 to Active Defenses, and the character would have the Exhausted Condition. You could also add Penetrating or Improved Crit or whatever as you see fit. Also, a rank or two of Luck wouldn't be a bad idea, because nothing's worse than going for the big, awesome last-ditch attack and having it whiff on a Natural 1.


OMG!

That OP!

I LOVE IT!

THANK YOU!

So in practice here's

IMP ver 3.0: AOA,Pow Att, Ex Effort, Imp Aim, Imp Crit 4, Luck 3, Immunity (Self-harm), Penetrating Strength based Damage 1, Tiring = 13 CP

Speedster has:
Strength 1
Unarmed +9

With MIP ver 3.0 this should happen

AOA: reduces my active def, buffs my attack roll bonus (+14 to hit Damage 2)
Pow Att: reduces my attack roll bonus, buffs my damage out put (+9 to hit Damage 7)
Imp Aim: adds 10 to attack roll at the cost of a standard action (+19 to hit Damage 7)
EX Effort (Slam Att): -2 to att roll +2 Damage out put moving at full speed (+17 to hit Damage 9)
2nd Ex Effort: up grades original bonus damage to 5 (+17 to hit Damamge 12)
Luck: is my insurance policy
and
Imp Crit: is just there to add insult to injury

So IMP ver 3.0 +17 to hit, Penetrating Damage 12? Also since majority of the extra damage are circumstantial bonuses are the counted as Penetrating as well? I'm asking cause technically there is only 1 rank of Penetrating in the formula.
So this is still within PL limits...technically right?

Also does


So, at the end, the Infinite Mass Punch would be performed with a[I] +8 to Attack and +10 Damage on top of whatever your regular values are, -5 to Active Defenses, and the character would have the Exhausted Condition. You could also add Penetrating or Improved Crit or whatever as you see fit. Also, a rank or two of Luck wouldn't be a bad idea, because nothing's worse than going for the big, awesome last-ditch attack and having it whiff on a Natural 1.


are these bonuses to Att and damage account for PL max? Meaning if I mod it so that the total bonuses are +10 Att +10 Damage
this can't go any further as together they add up to 2x PL.

Jhyarelle79
10-21-2014, 09:39 PM
bump.

rwknoll
10-22-2014, 08:30 AM
I think you're making this a little overcomplicated. Let's start from the ground and build up to show what does and doesn't contribute to PL caps.

First, the only things that matter for offensive PL caps is your standard attack bonus and the Damage effect rank of the power. Note that you may need to adjust some of my numbers to account for your character's Close Combat skill bonus, as I haven't seen that specifically posted in your other posts. For the purpose of this example, I will assume that you have a Close Combat skill for this array at +10 overall. In this case, we want to go with a Damage 10 base effect to max out offensive PL caps.

The following do not matter for calculating PL caps:

Bonuses from maneuvers (e.g., Power Attack, All-Out Attack, Slam)
Bonus to effect rank from critical hits
Bonus from aiming, (e.g., such as with Improved Aim advantage)
Bonus from Multiattack against a single target (which can grant +2 or +5 damage, based on how high your attack roll is)

Second, it is important to note that many GMs do not allow you to stack benefits from multiple maneuvers, as doing so might too heavily throw game balance out of whack. For this example, then, I am only going to build a power that uses Power Attack, because (1) it is the simplest and most direct way within your control to boost your damage of those three maneuvers, and (2) your attack bonus will be significantly boosted by Improved Aim.

Third, I would skip Penetrating altogether. A base Damage 10 effect will already ignore Impervious Toughness rank 19 or lower anyway, and with bonuses from Power Attack and critical hits it's going to hit anyone regardless of their Toughness unless we're talking about a very ridiculously high PL character with no Dodge/Parry bonus or a special Immunity power. I would instead recommend the Multiattack extra to indicate that your attack includes a "flurry of blows" descriptor. Alternatively, it would allow you to hit multiple enemies as long as they are within melee reach, which is pretty awesome if you need to do a "finale" kind of power against a swarm of multiple guys standing adjacent to each other.

To maximize your attack and damage bonus with a hard-hitting, accurate attack that makes you tired and fits within 20 points, I recommend the following power and strategy:

Infinite Mass Punch: Damage 10 (Extra: Multiattack) (Feats: Improved Critical 4 [16-20], Extra Advantage 6: Improved Aim, Luck 4, Power Attack) (Flaw: Tiring) [Total: 20 pp]

Before any actions, you are at a base +10 attack, Damage 10 (Toughness DC 25).


On your first turn, take a standard action to use Improved Aim. You must be adjacent to your target(s) to gain the bonus from aiming, which makes you Vulnerable until your next action. New stats on your next attack: Attack +20, Damage 10 (DC 25). You will make the attack on your second turn.
As a free action, use Extra Effort to boost your attack by +1. Attack +20, Damage 11 (DC 26). With the Tiring effect, this will move you from Normal --> Exhausted, or (if you've used Extra Effort already or are suffering from the Fatigued condition) Tiring --> Incapacitated.
As a standard action, use IMP with up to Power Attack 5. Attack +15, Damage 16 (DC 31).
If your total attack is poor, use Luck to re-roll. You can re-roll for IMP only (i.e., can't do that with any other power) up to 4 times per game session, assuming you have as many as 4 opportunities to use an attack that exhausts you without passing out during combat.
If your natural d20 roll is 16 or greater, and the total attack bonus equals or exceeds their Parry, you score a critical hit. Attack +15, Damage 21 (DC 36).
If your total attack roll exceeds the target's Parry by two degrees of success (6-10 above Parry), your damage increases by 2. Attack +15, Damage 23 (DC 38).
If your attack exceeds by three degrees of success (11-15+ above Parry), your damage increases by 5. Attack +15, Damage 28 (DC 43).

Thus, the maximum bonus you could do would be Attack +15, Damage 28 (Toughness DC 43) without breaking PL caps. You will be Exhausted or Incapacitated at the beginning of your next turn, unless you spend a HP to recover a level of fatigue. Alternatively, you could just not use Extra Effort and the attack would only give you one fatigued condition (or no change at all, if you use a HP).

You also could use Extra Effort to take the attack on your same turn, rather than waiting for another round, which would reduce the Damage by 1.

This is all assuming that (1) my math is correct, and (2) your GM allows such a power. This attack puts you around PL 21 offensively, which is basically ridiculous (I can't believe Improved Aim gives +10 on a melee attack).

FuzzyBoots
10-22-2014, 08:50 AM
This is all assuming that (1) my math is correct, and (2) your GM allows such a power. This attack puts you around PL 21 offensively, which is basically ridiculous (I can't believe Improved Aim gives +10 on a melee attack).

There are substantial penalties involved in aiming (http://www.d20herosrd.com/9-gamemastering/8-action-adventure#TOC-AIM-STANDARD-ACTION) from melee range.

However, you are vulnerable while aiming and it requires a free action to maintain your aim before you make your attack. If you are unable to maintain it, you lose its benefit.

Once you aim, your next action must be to make the attack. Taking a different action spoils your aim and you lose the bonus.
The target has an opportunity to hit you while you're vulnerable, and something as simple as stepping 10 feet away means your Aim action is useless since you would have to first Move before attacking. Ranged attacks are a more amiable setup, and therefore have a lower bonus.

rwknoll
10-22-2014, 08:56 AM
Ok, good point. I edited my post because I had made a few mistakes with the Aim rules and didn't realize them.

Couldn't you just use Extra Effort for an extra Standard Action, and then attack on the same turn? That bypasses the Vulnerable completely and means they won't get a chance to move away, at the cost of a measly +1 Damage.