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Kasseopea
10-08-2014, 10:36 AM
Well, im just planning ahead for the future and currently my Hero has Impervious Protection.

Now i did some math. With an Impervious Protection Lv30 you can ignore Damage 15, however - considering your defense is 1d20+30 vs 15+15 damage, you cant get any damage anyways, unless you roll a 1.

Am i just dumb or is Impervious Protection really getting useless at higher ranks?

Shock
10-08-2014, 11:03 AM
Impervious would still be immune to Damage 15(multiattack) whereas without Impervious, you could be looking at DC32 or 35.

kariggi
10-08-2014, 11:03 AM
The way it is I consider it more of a show piece that a real power even at level 10 Impervious means your ignoring 5> so the most your stopping from happening is a -1 condition if you manage to roll 5> on your check. Its nice for the "I can't be hurt by normal gunfire" effect, but mechanically give very little benefit unless your tend to be swarmed by minions in your games a lot.

FuzzyBoots
10-08-2014, 11:08 AM
Nope. The math makes it pointless. It's a fairly well-known phenomenon that arithmetical adjustments scale with PL but anything involving multiplicative adjustments (half ranks, etc) does not. Given the standard is PL 10, I'd probably veer toward all of the "half" items instead working as "-5". So Impervious protects you from all effects Rank-5 and lower. Half immunity subtracts 5, etc.

Nite_Owl
10-08-2014, 11:56 AM
Nope. The math makes it pointless. It's a fairly well-known phenomenon that arithmetical adjustments scale with PL but anything involving multiplicative adjustments (half ranks, etc) does not. Given the standard is PL 10, I'd probably veer toward all of the "half" items instead working as "-5". So Impervious protects you from all effects Rank-5 and lower. Half immunity subtracts 5, etc.

I use this house rule in 2E (where it doesn't apply to Impervious but applies to things like area effects and half-effect immunities), and it works very well.

Edit: Let me also say though that unless you're running a really uber-cosmic game, I see no reason to ever consider what happens at PL 30 (or really, anything above PL 20). Personally I've never had a need to go higher than PL 15-16, even for the greatest of master villains. PL 20 is really ridiculously powerful.

CAA
10-09-2014, 01:30 PM
what kind of character would be lv30?! Even characters like Thanos or Superman are somewhere close, but still below 20 in most the sources (DC book, threads in this forum..)

saint_matthew
10-09-2014, 04:38 PM
If you are playing at PL30 everything you do is going to be pretty much pointless no matter what you do.

Batgirl III
10-09-2014, 05:42 PM
When I drew up my M&M3e build for Mogo (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=45673&p=1069416#p1069416), the living planet from Green Lantern, he came in at PL40. Mostly due to the 80 ranks of Growth necessary to reach planetary-sizes giving him a Toughness 80. (He's got –40 Dodge/Parry)

He's actually still on the small side for a planetary body, Growth 80 has him roughly on par with the Moon. (Earth itself would be Growth 88.)

I would never, ever run a PL40 campaign. But it might be fun to play...

Kasseopea
10-10-2014, 02:29 AM
My calculations are based on trade-offs, so basically the impervious rank is at the PL, since the Protections is twice the PL, thus setting active defenses like parry and dodge to 0. Otherwise PL, Protection and enemy damage would be twice as high as the impervious, thus impervious would be even more useless. Actually i made them again and you actually need dont need Impervious after Protection Lv26.

Basically: If hit for 13 (the highest amount of damage the impervious def would soak), you would have receive 15+13 damage = 28 damage. You withstand with 26 Toughness from your Protection + 1d20. However, since 1 is a glitch (If i recall correct) you need at least a 2. Thus its 28 vs 28.

At impervious 12 (Protection 24) you would need a 3 from your 1d20 without impervious (15+12=27 vs 27)
At impervious 11 (Protection 22) you would need a 4 from your 1d20 without impervious (15+11=26 vs 26)
At impervious 10 (Protection 20) you would need a 5 from your 1d20 without impervious (15+10=25 vs 25)
[...]
At impervious 5 (Protection 10) you would need a 10 from your 1d20 without impervious (15+5=20 vs 20)
[...]
At impervious 1 (Protection 2) you would need a 14 from your 1d20 without impervious (15+1=16 vs 16)

Thus, its rather counterintuitive. Its basically more powerful, the weaker your Protection is, reaching its effectiveness peak at the lowest level.

One could ofcourse argue that 1. From the roleplay perspective a plate-armor like protection always should be impervious, no matter what the numbers say and 2. That things that affect you over time (i.e. a laser beam that goes on for minutes, continuous punching or a drill in your face) would wear the armor down, though i think this one is covered with a flaw.

Basically the only reason to keep impervious at higher levels is for the roleplay. Though its a pretty expensive reason, considering it doubles the cost of the power.

Darkdreamer
10-10-2014, 10:58 PM
I'm still of the opinion that the change in Impervious was one of the few missteps in going from 2e yo 3e; it fixed a problem that for most people wasn't there, at the price of making the Extra nearly pointless at the best of times.

Batgirl III
10-11-2014, 09:35 AM
I'm still of the opinion that the change in Impervious was one of the few missteps in going from 2e yo 3e; it fixed a problem that for most people wasn't there, at the price of making the Extra nearly pointless at the best of times.

I have the feeling that they created the "fix" for Impervious early in the writing of 3e, but never revisited it later when they started pricing other Extras at +2PP/rank.

If you use the 2e rules for how Impervious and Penetrating interact, but double the cost of Impervious, you get a nice balance between 2e and 3e.

FuzzyBoots
10-11-2014, 10:07 AM
I actually sort of like 3e Penetrating. It's a throwback to 1e and it makes full ranks more relevant. In 2e, a few ranks gave you enough Penetrating to break through anything you found, especially with Power Attack adding on. 1e's take on it did not work because the lack of alternate powers made it prohibitively expensive to have an attack that can break through.

Really, all I think 3e needed to change for Impervious was to cap it to PL, regardless of Toughness shift.

Kasseopea
10-11-2014, 08:55 PM
If ive read it correctly, the penetrating is even more pointless than impervious.
Its cost are basically 1/r, but cant be negated with a -1/r ability like tiring or distracting.

An i mean cmon. If you have to penetrate impervious, it means that the enemy has at LEAST twice the toughness you damage-rank is.
I.e. you can deal 10, enemy has impervious 10. Means his Toughness is 20. So yippie, you attack him with you penetrating and he rolls 25 vs 1d20+20.

Basically its the same question as before. Impervious and penetrating are simply pointless. Ive read it up in the 2nd edition. There it was useful, in the 3rd its not. Not in the slightest. If we could at least pay like with penetrating 1 flat per rank of impervious - yes, that would be useful and make sense. The way it is now though the calculations proves that it is simply a waste of PP.

Its a pity, because this way you cant have really armored characters, who can sit under a rain of bullets not giving a fuck, because they have adamantium armor. The only way there is, is the immunity to toughness damage, which at 80PP just doesnt make any sense to buy, unless you are creating some super-uber-villain.

Kyle
10-12-2014, 01:27 AM
If ive read it correctly, the penetrating is even more pointless than impervious.
Its cost are basically 1/r, but cant be negated with a -1/r ability like tiring or distracting.

An i mean cmon. If you have to penetrate impervious, it means that the enemy has at LEAST twice the toughness you damage-rank is.
I.e. you can deal 10, enemy has impervious 10. Means his Toughness is 20. So yippie, you attack him with you penetrating and he rolls 25 vs 1d20+20.
What PL are you playing at that you're regularly encountering characters with a 20 Toughness?

I'd agree that Impervious and Penetrating are really Effects that end up being more thematic than effective, but that's fine. If M&M was just about building unstoppable munchkin juggernauts, a huge chunk of the core rules could be thrown right out the window. And if that's how people want to play, personally I don't see the appeal, but I'm never going to tell someone that they're having fun wrong.

Impervious is there for characters who aren't just likely to shrug off most conventional attacks, but aren't really even going to notice regular weaponry. Consider a PL 10 Paragon. If he or she is Toughness shifted, and has 15 ranks of Impervious Toughness, they don't even need to pick up the dice for any attack that has 8 or fewer ranks of Damage. Looking at the Gadgets & Gear chapter, that means our hypothetical Paragon won't even blink at anything less powerful than rocket launcher. Or a Defense shifted Crimefighter with a bullet-proof -- i.e. 6 ranks of Impervious -- costume will be able to ignore most small arms fire.

Then, when the GM busts out the special mineral that the Paragon is susceptible to, or the armour piercing rounds, and suddenly the Player has to roll for their character against attacks they'd normally laugh at, that can suddenly make the fight interesting, even if the characters aren't in any real danger.

It's all thematic.

Also, look at Impervious and Penetrating from the GM's perspective. If ranks of Impervious protected against Damage at a 1:1 ratio, that puts the onus on the GM of a player who's character has high ranks of Impervious to constantly figure out work arounds or come-up with reasons why the villains have Penetrating on all their attacks so that combat encounters can still be fun and interesting. And if the GM is having to build his or her combat encounters to work around the high ranks of Impervious, than that just as effectively renders the power points spent on Impervious wasted, because they're not actually doing anything for the character.

It's almost like a variation on the url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma]Prisoner's Dilemma[/url].

By limiting the effectiveness of Impervious against higher ranks of Damage, the game enables the player to create a character that laughs at bullets, but doesn't force the GM into a situation where they're needing to essentially undermine the player's build almost every encounter.

mrdent12
10-12-2014, 03:09 AM
Also, look at Impervious and Penetrating from the GM's perspective. If ranks of Impervious protected against Damage at a 1:1 ratio, that puts the onus on the GM of a player who's character has high ranks of Impervious to constantly figure out work arounds or come-up with reasons why the villains have Penetrating on all their attacks so that combat encounters can still be fun and interesting. And if the GM is having to build his or her combat encounters to work around the high ranks of Impervious, than that just as effectively renders the power points spent on Impervious wasted, because they're not actually doing anything for the character.

To be fair, this argument can be applied to most powers or trade offs. What about a PL 10 PC with 15 defense and reflex? What about the insubstantial 2 PC? In any game the GM needs to strike that balance between having foes who can threaten a PC yet still allowing the PC to be the star at times due to their build. Mnm is very easy to make a PC that is too powerful in one aspect or another.

Of course, that is not to say I disagree with your central premise that impervious is a thematic thing much like every other aspect of the MnM system. Anyone who takes 15 impervious at 1:1 ratio at PL 10, assuming pp caps is probably lacking in another area or disregarding RP in favor of making an optimized PC. I am not saying this is always the case, but it often seems to be in my experience. This is especially true if someone has 20 toughness and is PL10. Any GM worth their salt won't be using toughness attacks for any combat that matters after maybe an initial attack. My take on 3E impervious is that, like others have said, it is more of a concept type power for a PC to boast he can't be hurt by normal people or something of that sort.

Kasseopea
10-12-2014, 05:40 AM
What PL are you playing at that you're regularly encountering characters with a 20 Toughness?

I'd agree that Impervious and Penetrating are really Effects that end up being more thematic than effective, but that's fine. If M&M was just about building unstoppable munchkin juggernauts, a huge chunk of the core rules could be thrown right out the window. And if that's how people want to play, personally I don't see the appeal, but I'm never going to tell someone that they're having fun wrong.

Impervious is there for characters who aren't just likely to shrug off most conventional attacks, but aren't really even going to notice regular weaponry. Consider a PL 10 Paragon. If he or she is Toughness shifted, and has 15 ranks of Impervious Toughness, they don't even need to pick up the dice for any attack that has 8 or fewer ranks of Damage. Looking at the Gadgets & Gear chapter, that means our hypothetical Paragon won't even blink at anything less powerful than rocket launcher. Or a Defense shifted Crimefighter with a bullet-proof -- i.e. 6 ranks of Impervious -- costume will be able to ignore most small arms fire.

Then, when the GM busts out the special mineral that the Paragon is susceptible to, or the armour piercing rounds, and suddenly the Player has to roll for their character against attacks they'd normally laugh at, that can suddenly make the fight interesting, even if the characters aren't in any real danger.

It's all thematic.

Also, look at Impervious and Penetrating from the GM's perspective. If ranks of Impervious protected against Damage at a 1:1 ratio, that puts the onus on the GM of a player who's character has high ranks of Impervious to constantly figure out work arounds or come-up with reasons why the villains have Penetrating on all their attacks so that combat encounters can still be fun and interesting. And if the GM is having to build his or her combat encounters to work around the high ranks of Impervious, than that just as effectively renders the power points spent on Impervious wasted, because they're not actually doing anything for the character.

It's almost like a variation on the url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma]Prisoner's Dilemma[/url].

By limiting the effectiveness of Impervious against higher ranks of Damage, the game enables the player to create a character that laughs at bullets, but doesn't force the GM into a situation where they're needing to essentially undermine the player's build almost every encounter.

Well, we had a Mutant Powerhouse and a World War 2 Defender. We were PL10. So basically two guys who dont give too many fucks about dodging or actually doing anything but waiting for a chance to slap an average hero like the bitch he is compared to them. I mean, its pretty logical - if we have 4-5 heroes, the enemy cant be just as strong as we are.

And yeah, roleplay ftw, but paying twice the price for a power, just so it is thematic? Really? Gonna throw a PL worth of PP just so it thematic? Then you throw another 10-20PP for penetrating away and another X-amount of PP for impervious create, huh? And then we make a character with 20+ in knowledge [ball scratching]. There is power gaming and there is not wasting points on things nerfed to death.

Also - how exactly is "Well, if impervious would be useful, then the GM would have to use penetrating" an argument? Ofcourse he would. If i have immunity to Fear and Sleep, then sorry, but your Freddy Kruger wont be much of a threat to me. Thats what immunities (or partial immunity like impervious) are for.

The way it is now, i cant have a proper defense threshold due to impervious without having my protection twice as high. And even if i abandon my active defenses like dodge and parry, it would still mean that im only safe from enemies who dont supersede MY powerlevel in damage. At the end of the day i will still get my shit wrecked by any mediocre powerhouse who punches me with a power attack or multistrike.

Same goes for Evasion nerf. Now you could be flying mid-air. The enemy shoots a fire&forget rocket at you (like an RPG or Bazooka, so ones that dont follow you around) and you could be able to teleport to a different continent as a move action, you would still be hit by it, becuz AoE and reasons. I mean, you could literally have the lowest rank in "Area" and you would NEVER really miss, even if its only 30 feet and your enemy is a speedster.
Blast Lv10 - Multiattack, Power Attack, Area (Line) - there, you have your uber Lazor of doom that will always force a DC 25 toughness throw, no matter how agile or fast your opponent is. A pity no one told The Flash that he cant dodge shit if its AoE.

CAA
10-12-2014, 05:57 AM
Well, we had a Mutant Powerhouse and a World War 2 Defender. We were PL10. So basically two guys who dont give too many fucks about dodging or actually doing anything but waiting for a chance to slap an average hero like the bitch he is compared to them.

I don't believe that anyone from outside our group is going to know what a WW2 Defender is (because we aren't playing in any official setting).... which is pretty much an anti build to our group ;-)

And when all you know is one kind of attack and you aren't doing anything else than repeaditly using it... and hes an anti build... guess what, you aren't any kind of danger to him. But that he knocked out someone within 2-3 battle rounds, who knocks you out, should have given that away before the battle.... :P

Probably no one from our group could have beaten him 1vs1. But 3 or 4 vs 1 and 1-2 more intillegent ideas than "i hit him with my fist" and he would have been easy fry.

Kasseopea
10-12-2014, 06:35 AM
Hehe, hey buddy^^ (Ladies & Gentleheroes - i think my GM arrived. He is the one you have to pity for a player like me XD)

And i still was able to punch him in the face and send him flying with a 2nd degree :P
Though im pretty sure one of my own following attacks would have torn me to pieces, since i had to take down my Protection to deal damage and he reflected for like 30+ XD

Explanation - it was a reflecting power-house without any attack. Since we had many physicals and almost no Will-Afflicting powers, he only had to wait for someone to punch him, so he could reflect the attack back at us. I was kind of "Stop punching yourself, why are you punching yourself? Cmon dude, you really shouldnt hit yourself to hard" from a an old cartoon^^

Point is, that if any character goes for damage, he will easily surpass impervious, making it useless. Lets say PL10, no trade-offs.

That would be Blast/Strike 10 + Power Attack (5) + Multiattack Single Target (5) + Improved Critical/Ultimate Effort. Characters like Wolverine, Warblade, Green Lantern, Cyclops, Iceman - some of them are PL Omfg, but they all have rediculous damage output without being divine by any means (well, unless Iceman finally snaps and declares that every atom in the universe has to stop moving, which they then kinda will...).

The only thing it would be good for, would be some minions shooting with their pew-pew-pew guns at you, but i dont think minions are supposed to be a real threat anyways.

CAA
10-12-2014, 06:42 AM
I don't see how further explanation of the Defender situation adds to this topic.... if you want to discuss the defender, lets do that in our group forum? Oh and btw I'm not the GM, I'm the player of Green Swan :P

On the other hand... let's say 1 Level Impervious would give you immunity to one dmg rang. Don't know and don't care how it was in 2nd edition, but that feels way to strong.

That's how the rules are.... deal with it or make a proposal for a houserule that gets a thumbs up from everyone in the group? Whining about how useless something is, won't make it any better.

Kasseopea
10-12-2014, 06:51 AM
I thought that maybe someone would say "Hmm, yeah, but lets say X happens, then its useful".

My hero never went down with his protection up, only when taking it down, and the way i made him, he is the one to get utterly wasted at some point in a battle anyways, wreaking havoc in the process of it. Thats why he has diehard - i expect him to almost die to begin with^^

One of his own abilities renders him utterly useless after one attack, so its not about having an always-winner. I just wanted to know whether impervious has any use whatsoever. It kinda has, a little, vs minions. Which then can have low-lv penetrating, chip away at your impervious and deal damage anyway (APDS ammunition i.e.).

Got my answer, but love to stick with conversations for longer than im welcome X_X

Darkdreamer
10-12-2014, 09:35 AM
I actually sort of like 3e Penetrating. It's a throwback to 1e and it makes full ranks more relevant. In 2e, a few ranks gave you enough Penetrating to break through anything you found, especially with Power Attack adding on. 1e's take on it did not work because the lack of alternate powers made it prohibitively expensive to have an attack that can break through.

Really, all I think 3e needed to change for Impervious was to cap it to PL, regardless of Toughness shift.

I agree pretty much across the board, though I'd never found it that big a deal even when it wasn't PL capped; it only created a real problem in severe shifts, and those were problematic in other ways.

Kyle
10-12-2014, 10:08 AM
Also - how exactly is "Well, if impervious would be useful, then the GM would have to use penetrating" an argument? Ofcourse he would. If i have immunity to Fear and Sleep, then sorry, but your Freddy Kruger wont be much of a threat to me. Thats what immunities (or partial immunity like impervious) are for.
The difference is that except in the case of very specific series, in a superhero game, physical combat is going to come up a lot more regularly.

If I'm the GM and one of my players built a character with an Immunity to fear and sleep, that's an opportunity for me to create a scenario that gives that character a moment in the sun. I could introduce a Freddy Kruger or Nightmare type villain and have the rest of the team cast into a dream realm, and have the immune character single handedly defend his or her slumbering comrades from a hoard of nightmare monsters. That could be a really cool moment for that character, and would validate the player's decision to spend points on those immunities.

Conversely, because the primary method of problem resolution in superhero fiction is punching, if a player were to spend the points in a way that renders most physical combat useless, the GM is almost obligated to invalidate that purchase.

Or, to put it another way, no one is spending points on Immunity to fear or sleep expecting it to come up that frequently. Those are build decisions made because it's thematically appropriate for the character. Roleplay FTW, as you say.

Batgirl III
10-12-2014, 10:10 AM
There are so many ways to put down an Impervious Toughness character beyond doing Damage that, honestly, it's never been an issue for me in any edition. Comic book back issue bins are filled to bursting with underdog heroes defeating invincible bad guys. If teenage Spidey can stop the Juggernaut or Green Arrow can put down Solomon Grundy, you're hero can do it too.

Think outside the Damage box.

But, yes, the whole point of Impervious Toughness is to be able to ignore some sources of damage, but not all of them. For decades, Superman's litany of powers ended with: nothing less than a bursting shell could penetrate his skin! He could just shrug of anything shy of a direct artillery strike. Pretty impressive, but still within the PL10-ish range his early adventures had him engaged in.

Kyle
10-12-2014, 10:16 AM
The only thing it would be good for, would be some minions shooting with their pew-pew-pew guns at you, but i dont think minions are supposed to be a real threat anyways.

That depends on the Minion.

Assuming you watched the 'Avengers' movie, remember this scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amVfFRNmDE4)? I'd say that big chitauri monster probably has the Minion quality, but the Hulk was the only one able to overcome it's Toughness.

Kasseopea
10-12-2014, 11:21 AM
That depends on the Minion.

Assuming you watched the 'Avengers' movie, remember this scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amVfFRNmDE4)? I'd say that big chitauri monster probably has the Minion quality, but the Hulk was the only one able to overcome it's Toughness.

Ok, first off - that wasnt the Hulk, that was some cuddly-soft-porn version of it, kissing kittens and plucking flowers in his spare time. "Im always angry" ?!? Yeah, Deus ex Hulkina.

And i doubt it was a minion, Hulk simply dealt a 4th degree with a Reflect. (You know, if you hit something in real life and it doesnt budge, you get twice the newton back. Thats why even a black belt would break his hand at a concrete wall, but can break concrete plates at the same time.) So basically the monster hit him, he defended and threw the damage back, which together with the monsters mass simply destroyed it.

kariggi
10-12-2014, 12:39 PM
Thinking this through there does appear to be a level at which Impervious in its current fashion can shine. In 10>PL games it does a nice job of preventing your brick from getting worn down by "regular" weapons fire, and while those -1 Toughness penalties don't seem like much, they can certainly add up, and who wants to be -3/4 before they meet the big baddy? With Impervious Toughness 10/12 you are wading through the common weapon barrages without incident and that would seem to hold some value.

It likely depends a lot on the campaign, but if your facing Black Manta's minions, Hydra, or the League of Assassins, on any regular basis I'm thinking your team mates might not mind a guy willing to do a little wading through the masses for them.

Gorakar
10-12-2014, 02:17 PM
Thinking this through there does appear to be a level at which Impervious in its current fashion can shine. In 10>PL games it does a nice job of preventing your brick from getting worn down by "regular" weapons fire, and while those -1 Toughness penalties don't seem like much, they can certainly add up, and who wants to be -3/4 before they meet the big baddy? With Impervious Toughness 10/12 you are wading through the common weapon barrages without incident and that would seem to hold some value.
...

Yes, but is that really worth spending 10 PP on Impervious? If my goal is simply to "wade through common weapon barrages", i would most likely buy an immunity to bullets (which is 5 PP, according to the book).
I feel that impervious protection in 3e is to expensive/to weak in comparison to itīs "unpowered" counter: plain damage. For every 2 PP points of impervious, you get the capability of possibly brushing aside 1 PP of damage (unless your foe decided to spend as much on damage as you did on defence).
In my opinion, impervious would be better priced at 1 PP/2 ranks of impervious protection (of course still limited by your maximum toughness). That way the balance wouldnīt be so deeply disrupted.

mrdent12
10-12-2014, 02:38 PM
MnM is an inherently unbalanced game system for combat. Realistically, a weapons master archetype isn't balanced with a powerhouse or paragon and a martial artist is not balanced with a flying blaster. If you approach it from an optimization perspective, you can create a PC as the ultimate fighter or one trick pony of your choice. With a little ingenuity, you can probably make a PC who is nigh invulnerable to harm in any way imaginable. If that is your approach, MnM can work for you fine. The real draw to the system though, for me at least, is the freedom it gives to make a concept. So, yes you can have immunity to bullets, but imagine if the hulk or other power house wasn't impervious to a sword blade or sling shot. They wouldn't be as much a power house as they would a bullet soaker. If that the theme you are shooting for, great. Otherwise, impervious probably works better for most concepts.

Kyle
10-12-2014, 03:35 PM
And i doubt it was a minion, Hulk simply dealt a 4th degree with a Reflect. (You know, if you hit something in real life and it doesnt budge, you get twice the newton back. Thats why even a black belt would break his hand at a concrete wall, but can break concrete plates at the same time.) So basically the monster hit him, he defended and threw the damage back, which together with the monsters mass simply destroyed it.

Well, one of the great things about M&M is that there are frequently different ways to approach an idea to get the same thematic result. I am, however, curious as to how you'd go about building such an Effect.

That's all getting away from the point I was trying to make though, which is that Minions don't necessarily need to be pushovers. An NPC with the Minion quality can be a powerful, threatening character, they're simply quick to dispatch. Hell, a character that was at one point in a series a very difficult opponent could show up later with the Minion quality. Imagine an on-going series where the BBEG's chief enforcer frequently appears and is a very challenging fight for the heroes. At the climax of the campaign, that enforcer could be the last fight before they finally face off against the evil mastermind. If the GM wants the fight to be tough but still end quickly, they could decide that villain has the Minion quality for that combat, so the fight ends as soon as the heroes manage to inflict damage, and then they need to face the main event that is the series' villain.

Or, the heroes could be called into to quell a riot at a prison for supervillains. Under normal circumstances, any of the villains might be a credible threat on their own. In this scenario though, all the rioting villains have the Minion quality so the heroes can deal with all their old enemies, but not every encounter requires a long, drawn out conflict.

Minions are very frequently the mooks, and dime-store henchmen that most heroes wade through without thinking twice, but the point I was trying to make is that there's no reason that needs to always be the case.

Batgirl III
10-12-2014, 03:37 PM
Exactly, you need to stop thinking "how can I build an adventurer who can slay the dragon and escape the dungeon" and start think "how can I build a hero who can stop the evil mutants and capture the diabolical mastermind."

It's all about telling cool stories about the superhero you've been daydreaming about being since you were six, while your friends play pretend at being the heroes they've been daydreaming about. The numbers are just the planks holding in the sand, the story is the fun part of the sandbox.

mrdent12
10-12-2014, 03:58 PM
For character building, I like to go beyond the can do something and ask the question why would the character do the something. The can abstracts the mechanics while the why gives the character something more than a character sheet of stats. In the hulks case, he has varying motives depending on the writer. In the avengers at the end the why was he wanted to help save the world. The can was he was pretty much impossible to hurt and incredibly strong. The impossible to hurt could be impervious toughness, high regen, immunities, or some combination of it all. Dealers choice on how it is implemented keeping in mind the why, which helps guide skill/advantage choosing such as scientific knowledge as Bruce Banner.

Kasseopea
10-12-2014, 06:45 PM
For character building, I like to go beyond the can do something and ask the question why would the character do the something. The can abstracts the mechanics while the why gives the character something more than a character sheet of stats. In the hulks case, he has varying motives depending on the writer. In the avengers at the end the why was he wanted to help save the world. The can was he was pretty much impossible to hurt and incredibly strong. The impossible to hurt could be impervious toughness, high regen, immunities, or some combination of it all. Dealers choice on how it is implemented keeping in mind the why, which helps guide skill/advantage choosing such as scientific knowledge as Bruce Banner.

Yeah...nice speech. Only that they actually thought "Hmm...we need them all to be Lawful Good, Neutral Good or Chaotic Good and nothing else. Hulk is pretty much Chaotic Neutral...lets give make him the cuddly wuddly tuddly sweet green hero he is." - no, if The Hulk rages out he tears everything apart. The guy who almost offed Black Widow was The Hulk. Personally i dont like him and thats the reason why - he is neither good nor bad, he is a monster by any definition. He isnt evil, but he isnt good either.

BTT though - it was a mathematical question to begin with. Does Impervious Protection become useless and more so PP wasting at a certain point? Yes it does. At Protection Lv26 (Impervious Lv13) it basically doesnt matter whether you have it or not. Question answered.

What people now do with this knowledge is up to them. As i explained to one of my mates - to me such things are more or less like riddles. You have your facts and you try to get a certain truth. Solve the problem. Connect the dots. Thats all^^