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saint_matthew
10-03-2014, 12:48 AM
So apparently season 3 of Arrow starts up again in 5 days, so I've been binge viewing the episodes on my DVR, before I delete them.... There really are some really big flaws in that first season & I'm not talking story flaws, I'm talking common sense flaws, like when Oliver tries to chase down a guy on a motorcycle on foot, even though he himself just got off a motorcycle & was standing right next to it, on the very street where the enemy motorcycle was.

Luckily Season 2 got rid of a lot of those kinds of stupid things, here's hoping season 3 is even better.

kingk
10-03-2014, 01:18 PM
Yeah, I've never seen a show turn around as much as Arrow did between seasons 1 and 2. I tried watching Arrow when it first came on and I thought it was horrible and stopped, but something got me curious about it again and I binged about halfway through the first season to catch up and started following along. They've done well at abandoning most of the really annoying "CW Angsty Teen Drama" elements that felt out of place from Standard Superhero Family Drama. Also, Deathstroke's outfit in the second season was impressive.

I'm looking forward to seeing more of the League of Assassins, the Suicide Squad, and of course, the main crew. They've made some interesting casting choices (both in terms of which characters were going to see and who is going to portray them) this season, and I'm excited to see what they have in mind.

Kyle
10-09-2014, 09:42 PM
So...this whole episode was pretty much filler right up until the very last scene. Not the best way to open a season.

New Count Vertigo - Why is it in superhero fiction, people intentionally buy and consume drugs that make them feel terrible? No one does that! That is not an accurate portrayal of the mindset of anyone who engages in illegal narcotics use, from folks who occasionally smoke weed to hardcore heroin addicts. No one! This is a trope that I've only ever seen in superhero fiction.

Allow me, if you will, a dramatic re-enactment of how the conversation between a drug dealer selling vertigo, and anyone looking to purchase drugs for recreational use.


Count Vertigo: Drugs for sale! Drugs for sale! Ladies and gentlemen, purchase your drugs right here. Drugs for sale!

Haggard Junkie: Hello there, my good man. Did I hear correctly that you are engaging in the sale of narcotics?

CV: Your hearing did not fail you, Sir.

HJ: Bully! Tell me about your wares.

CV: Why, I carry only the highest quality illegal narcotics in all of Starling City! Have you heard of vertigo?

HJ: Vertigo? Yes, I do believe I have. Vertigo is the green and black pills that induce feelings of dizziness and nausea, not unlike its namesake, is that right?

CV: Right you are!

HJ: Sounds ghastly to me. Can't imagine why anyone would want to feel that way.

CV: I couldn't agree more. Which is why this new vertigo, specially produced by myself, Count Vertigo, has a special extra additive!

HJ: Do tell!

CV: This new vertigo also contains a hallucinogenic fungus that makes you see your worst nightmares, while still inducing the dizziness and nausea. It's a triple threat!

HJ: Good sir, I do believe you're mistaken in your assumption as to why people do drugs at all. Tell me, could you direct me to the nearest distributor of crack cocaine?

Peter Stormare is a fun actor, but the plot for the new Count Vertigo seems as though it was tossed together at the last minute.

Maybe at some point they'll reveal he's actually exiled eastern European royalty out to kill his niece and steal her throne, or have some mad scientist kidnap him and hook his brain up to a machine that gives him vertigo powers, but until then, I'm not really seeing the point of introducing a new Count.

Ollie & Felicity - Ugh.

The Atom - Ray Palmer had more on screen chemistry with Felicity in his first minute than Ollie did over the past two seasons. Still, I'm not sure that the show can handle to awkward, bumbling, incredibly good looking nerds speaking to one another in stilted tech terms and initialisms.

Ollie & Dig - The previews for this season made it seem like there was going to be a lot of tension between the two after Oliver benches Diggle now that he's a father. I'm glad to see that they at least managed to get past the first episode of the season without Ollie having to once again learn the true meaning of friendship.

Flashbacks - Hey, it's Katana! Also, Amanda Waller is terrible at motivating people.

The Big Shocking Cliffhanger - SPOILERS! Maybe I'm naive, but I really did not expect them to kill off one of the few characters on the show who's actually likeable. I guess they're going to actually make Laurel Black Canary, which I'm not sold on, because she's pretty much the least likeable character. Ra's al Ghul will be showing up this season, so maybe it's not too much to hope Sara might see the inside of a Lazarus Pit?

My guess would be that Thea's the one who killed Sara. Five months under the care and tutelage of Malcolm Merlyn seems like a quick turnaround for her to become a murdering, archery themed supervillain, but none of the other archers on the show really make much sense. The other option would be a character who's yet to be introduced, but that seems like fairly poor storytelling. END SPOILERS!

Yeoman
10-09-2014, 11:08 PM
I don't think the new Vertigo was supposed to be sold, I think he designed it as a poison and weapon. Cause we never see him try to sell the new stuff.

Anyway, I always assumed the original Vertigo must have some pleasurable effect, with the vertigo like effects being an aftereffect. Though one must not discount the idea that it merely become fashionable in certain circles and people were stupid enough to keep buying it because of that.

Kyle
10-09-2014, 11:14 PM
I don't think the new Vertigo was supposed to be sold, I think he designed it as a poison and weapon. Cause we never see him try to sell the new stuff.

Sure, but at the meeting where Peter Stormare is first introduced as the new Count, he's explicitly called out as being a drug dealer before he murders the crime boss[?] and takes over the organization. Maybe that particular strain of vertigo isn't meant to be sold, but the only time the show has ever depicted anyone enjoying the effects of the drug was when the assistant DA was going through withdrawal symptoms and the first Count dosed him on television.

Kyle
10-15-2014, 11:23 PM
I'm torn.

On one hand, this episode was kind of a mess. Characters were all over the place, the flashback scenes didn't really make any progress, and everything that happened was a bit too convenient even by the standards of a show where one of the main characters is able to perform what amounts to magic with her Windows 8™ tablet.

However, on the other hand, there was a dirtbike mounted archery duel.

I also had a flare of excitement when Dig mentioned there were 20 or so archers in the A.R.G.U.S. database. You guys, I really, really like archery themed superheroes and villains. I cannot wait for Rainbow Archer to show up.

Horsenhero
10-16-2014, 12:11 AM
Personally, I didn't mind the first two episodes so much. Yes, there were some errors and plot holes, but I honestly think they're just setting the table for the rest of the season. Laurel now has a clear motivation to become Black Canary. In pursuit of that goal, she'll start training with Ted Grant. Thea is coming back to make the world miserable for Oliver and Roy. Ray Palmer is going to succeed at everything Oliver claimed he was going to do for the city in the first two seasons and failed to do and he's going to supply Felicity with a conversational partner who actually responds without looking like speaking is causing him pain. We've met Katana and her (doomed) husband and child, so the flashbacks should be interesting. I assume as usual they will relate to the "present day" story in some manner as always and somewhere about episode 4 or 5, Ra's Al Ghul ought to start making his presence known to the viewer, if not the team. And somewhere in the midst of this there will be a crossover with the Flash (episodes 5 & 6 I think).

This business about benching Diggle has got to stop though.

Overall, I'm anxious to see how it all shakes out. Characterwise it's going to be a bit crowded, but not every character has to appear in every episode, so it shouldn't be too bad.

Oh and I chuckled over Diggles' discovery of the sheer number of archery themed assassins.

Kyle
10-22-2014, 10:24 PM
I liked this episode. Definitely a step up from the first two this season.

My only complaint is that the showrunners seem to have conveniently forgotten that Laurel used to be fairly competent in a fight. I can think of at least one scene in each of the prior seasons where she took on guys bigger and better armed than herself, but here she got beat by a drunk despite having a bat and getting in the first swing. Oh, also, did they really need to make Ted Grant young & sexy? I'm sure they're going make him a romantic interest for Laurel, but in my heart Wildcat will always be grizzled and past his prime.

Horsenhero
10-22-2014, 10:50 PM
I didn't mind it all so much and I liked the shout out to Tomcat...Tommy Bronson. All in all, the first few episodes have been building nicely. Next comes the return of Nyssa Al Ghul, which will through a confrontation with Malcom Merlyn open the way for the arrival of Ra's, since he's this season's big bad.

Kyle
10-22-2014, 11:06 PM
I did get excited when Nyssa showed up at the end of the episode. Her episodes in season two were some of my favourite, even if her introduction was completely ridiculous.

Also, I'm starting to think that maybe, just maybe, it was Thea who killed Sara. Which means I don't really have a clue at this point. I still don't think it was Merlyn or Huntress, because Sara would have reacted a with a lot more hostility if either of them showed up on the roof, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't Ollie or Nyssa. So, the other established archer characters on the show are: Komodo who was a poor misidrection at best, Shado and Accomplished Perfect Physician are both dead, and Roy.

Unless I'm forgetting a character, that means either Roy or someone we haven't been introduced to yet killed Sara, and neither option seems great from a storytelling perspective.

Horsenhero
10-22-2014, 11:46 PM
Yeah, I'm of the opinion it was either Malcom or Thea, though it could have been another member of the League of Assassins. Perhaps even Ra's himself, but given that he has yet to be introduced that revelation would have little emotional impact.

Given Sara's reaction, Thea seems the most likely candidate.

Also, is it just me or is Lyla turning out to be just a bit...manipulative.

saint_matthew
10-23-2014, 12:53 AM
Annoyingly I've pretty much lost all interest in Arrow over the last 2 episodes. We've gone from last seasons episode structure of individual stories telling parts of a larger story, and its just become a game of which one of Ollies lies to friends, family & allies that will inevitably come back to bite you in the arse later in the season are the biggest lies, there by taking away more time from actual plot.... Yawn, bored now.... An to think that first episode had such promise, only to immediately squander it with non plots in the next two episodes.

I mean you build this playground, you've populated it with all the best toys & before even playing with it you look at it & say "I know, instead of playing here let's go watch paint dry."

Come on WB, you can do better than this.

Same with Ollies personality: Its going backwards, he's actually lost personality since last season.

Stormson
10-23-2014, 07:18 AM
Im half expecting the killer to be Tommy Merlyn, brought back by Lazarus Pit.

saint_matthew
10-23-2014, 07:40 AM
Im half expecting the killer to be Tommy Merlyn, brought back by Lazarus Pit.

Given how the series has been going for shock spectacle over solid writing, I could believe that.

badpenny
10-23-2014, 09:22 AM
Yeah, I'm of the opinion it was either Malcom or Thea, though it could have been another member of the League of Assassins. Perhaps even Ra's himself, but given that he has yet to be introduced that revelation would have little emotional impact.

Given Sara's reaction, Thea seems the most likely candidate.

And in the opening scene, there was the new clue that there was a woman on the scene. Perhaps Daddy had a little graduation test for Thea?

Kyle
10-23-2014, 10:07 AM
Im half expecting the killer to be Tommy Merlyn, brought back by Lazarus Pit.
Or maybe Shado.


And in the opening scene, there was the new clue that there was a woman on the scene. Perhaps Daddy had a little graduation test for Thea?
I assumed the woman the guy mentioned was actually Sara.

Kyle
10-29-2014, 11:34 PM
Easily the best episode of the season thus far. Granted, I do really like Katrina Law's portrayal of Nyssa for reasons only partially related to her acting ability, so I may be a bit biased.

I wonder if establishing that Nyssa knows where Sara's body is was intentionally done to fuel speculation that she might find her way into a Lazarus Pit at some point.

Other than some awkward dialogue, my only complaint would be the Flashbacks this season really aren't working for me. In season one, they were easily the best thing about the show most episodes, but here the flashbacks feel really forced. Amanda Waller is terrible, and none of her motivations for forcing Ollie to work for her make sense. Having a giant white dude wander the streets of Hong Kong while constantly touching the communicator in his ear does not make for a subtle assassin, regardless of how well he managed to survive on a jungle island full of mercenaries and crazy people. Her complete disregard for collateral damage, and willingness to force people to work for her against their will make me wonder how A.R.G.U.S. manages to operate without any oversight, or why she wouldn't have been a special addition to Ollie's list back in season one.

Anyways, dumb flashbacks aside, moar Katrina Law and multiple archer stand-offs please, 'Arrow' showrunners.

Mr Mole
10-30-2014, 08:10 AM
I knew it wasn't Merlyn, 'cause Sara was only mildly surprised to see whoever it was and Sara wasn't at all alarmed by her killer's presence.

Assuming the writers aren't huffing paint, it wouldn't've been Merlyn, Shado, Slade or Thea, 'cause Sara would've had a much bigger (and in some of those cases, violent) reaction.

The people I can think of that she would've been that comfortable with and who she wouldn't be alarmed to see carrying a bow are Ollie, Roy and Nyssa... Or maybe some acquaintance from the League of Assassins... Or someone impersonating one of the previously mentioned individuals. I don't see Merlyn, Slade or Thea pulling that off.

Shado, back from the grave? It's a stretch, but not totally impossible... And she could see Sara as being responsible for her death (and maybe stealing Ollie from her), the same way Slade blames Ollie... But I doubt that's what happened.

Maybe an agent of Ra's al Ghul (as has already been hinted at) who Sara was familiar with tried to frame Merlyn, figuring Nyssa would then kill Merlyn, which would cover the real assassin's tracks. Ra's obviously wasn't thrilled with Sara and I'm sure he'd sanction her elimination without hesitation if it furthered his plans.

Best guess: It's someone we haven't seen in action yet. While I'm definitely not a fan of the New52, I could see a Komodo tie-in.

Mr Mole
11-05-2014, 10:13 PM
Regarding the revelation at the end of the latest episode...

Okay, so I didn't see that one coming. I can see that everything fits except the motive... which I can't yet make any sense of... but I'm sure it'll be clear fairly soon...:confused:

Brainwashing or split personality or bodily possession or another psychotic break...? I dunno yet. I'm not even remotely sure how they're going to explain this one.

I'm reminded a bit of the Roy/Speedy/Red Arrow/Arsenal storyline on the Young Justice 'toon. Makes me wonder if maybe everything I think I know about Roy is totally wrong. I thought the mystery behind Sara's death was gonna be kinda hum-drum. Now I'm actually interested.

Horsenhero
11-05-2014, 10:37 PM
I knew it wouldn't be some random killer, the character was too important for that. That being said, if it really is Roy that killed her and this isn't some guilt ridden psychodrama, then I'm interested in seeing how it plays out. It's a serious "gotcha" moment, so I hope what follows is well executed.

Kyle
11-05-2014, 11:34 PM
So, did Roy have a chance to wipe the arrows clean before Sara fell off the roof, or did nobody think to check the murder weapons for prints? If Roy was somehow brainwashed or mind controlled into killing Sara, does Merlyn become the lead suspect? Maybe trying to stir up conflict between Ra's and Nyssa? Roy wasn't in costume in his vision/dream/nightmare, so it could be that Merlyn hasn't figured out Roy is Ollie's sidekick, and just wanted to put his daughter's ex in the line of fire.

Despite being filler, I liked this episode. Mostly. There's some really dumb things that happen, too. Ollie and Roy interfering with the ESU squad at the bank riot seems like it should have just escalated things further, and those cops didn't look like they were protected against the tear gas arrows. It was fairly predictable that Felicity's ex was going to be the bad guy, even with the swerve of him being dead. What was it that activated the motion sensing turrets? Was, "so am I," some sort of activation phrase? Why would Ollie move in with Thea? Maybe this is my hang-up, but I thought it was weird enough when they both still lived at home; why are financially independent adult siblings moving in together? Especially when they're both leading secret lives that they're trying to hide from one another.

Colton Haynes makes some spectacularly dumb faces during the final fight scene outside Brother-Eye's warehouse.

Horsenhero
11-06-2014, 12:10 AM
Well, except for the fact they're both keeping secrets, the moving in didn't bother me so much. I've run properties for some wealthy families and it's not uncommon to have adult children living in "the big house" with their parents. Even when they move out, it may only be to another house a few acres away on the same property. Maybe it's a wealth thing, but the rich people I've run properties for don't possess the same "get out of dodge" mentality that middle and lower class families do.

That being said, both Ollie and Thea are keeping huge secrets from each other amidst all this newfound "honesty" and moving in together would seem to be unwise. Of course I'm still not convinced Thea isn't plotting something heinous.

In regards to Felicity's ex, I am very, very glad to see he's the garden variety Starling City criminal, not a super-villain. Having everyone in the cast directly linked to a "name" villain would stretch credulity a bit. Of course we still know next to nothing about Felicity's dad (absentee genius), so that door hasn't closed completely. Maybe next season.

Kyle
11-06-2014, 01:04 AM
Oh, Felicity's dad is 100% guaranteed to be Dr. Sivana or the Calculator or some other low rent evil genius.

badpenny
11-06-2014, 05:09 AM
I need goth Felicity in every episode. Swoon.

*girl crush!*

Mr Mole
11-06-2014, 07:46 AM
Back in the day, Felicity Smoak was Ronnie Raymond's (AKA Firestorm) step-mother. I'm kinda curious to see how that might play out between the Arrow and Flash TV shows when Firestorm makes his appearance... (I can only hope they keep true-ish to the original storyline and have Firestorm turn Felicity's clothes into soap suds.)

As for Felicity's father... I really hadn't thought about it before. I can't think of any obvious candidates. Calculator's as good a suggestion as any I've heard.

Tattooedman
11-06-2014, 08:32 AM
I need goth Felicity in every episode.

I'd definitely not complain about this happening.....

Horsenhero
11-06-2014, 11:42 AM
What I hadn't noticed...and what a writer on another site wondered is...now that Felicity has created a program called "Brother Eye", is the NSA going to unleash OMAC at some point? Would this mean Felicity is OMAC's spiritual mama? If OMAC does appear, I hope it's the Buddy Blank version. It would gives me so much amusement to see that righteously huge mohawk on television.

To quote the Mike Myers character, Dieter; "I would be giddy as a little schoolgirl.":D

And props to the writers for making Felicity's mom more than just a blonde airhead. It took awhile to get to, but it was nice to have the show acknowledge that sometimes it's the effort of the single parent working multiple jobs that may be unglamorous, unrewarding and exhausting that paves the way for a bright future. And in the case of Donna the effort was completely unappreciated...until Felicity's epiphany of course.

Kyle
11-06-2014, 12:38 PM
Ray Palmer found a bunch of plans for military hardware labelled O.M.A.C. in the Queen Consolidated hard drive that Facility was able to recover. Apparently she didn't think to look at the data before handing it over to him.

Maxwell Lord hasn't been introduced on the show that I can remember, but I wonder.... In the comics Lord has mind control powers, and has been involved with O.M.A.C./Brother Eye a couple times. We also know on the show that the Queen family has dealings with the League of Assassins. Could Lord be working for Queen Consolidated and designed a bunch of weapons for the League of Assassins, and have mind controlled Roy into murdering Sara as a favour to Ra's? Also, because it's an implausible theory based on meta knowledge of the source material, let's say Lord is also super-smart and Felicity's dad.

Horsenhero
11-06-2014, 12:45 PM
Could be, but personally I'd rather see a version of the original Kirby, OMAC (One Man Army Corps) than the Infinite Crisis O.M.A.C. project, but that's just me. I liked Max Lord as the redeemed character from the end of JLI #10 as opposed to the eeevviiiill mind controller from Crisis...then again, I hated just about everything about Infinite Crisis, so the less it's material is used or referenced, the happier I am.

Kyle
11-06-2014, 01:18 PM
If they're ever going to have a huge blue mohawked cyborg show up, I don't think 'Arrow' is likely to be the show where it happens. I think O.M.A.C. (http://comicbook.com/2014/10/23/arrow-what-is-omac-/) is likely to have about as much in common with the source material as Amazo.

Mr Mole
11-06-2014, 01:37 PM
I think O.M.A.C. (http://comicbook.com/2014/10/23/arrow-what-is-omac-/) is likely to have about as much in common with the source material as Amazo.

Now I'm trying to figure out what kind of vehicle or power tool or household appliance would suit OMAC best. Hmmm. "Amazo" is to "ship" as "OMAC" is to what?

I've been waiting for some sort of followup Rex Tyler/Hourman reference since we first heard about mirakuru (miraclo, anyone?).

The Easter eggs are more entertaining than most of the scripts.

Geez, now that we got a look at the Arrowverse Mark Shaw (Privateer/Star-Tsar/Manhunter/Dumas), I find myself wanting to see a '70s era Paul Kirk/Manhunter on the show (kewlest costume ever, but Busiek's Power Company "Kirk DePaul" version would probably fit the tone of the show better).

Horsenhero
11-06-2014, 02:04 PM
If they're ever going to have a huge blue mohawked cyborg show up, I don't think 'Arrow' is likely to be the show where it happens. I think O.M.A.C. (http://comicbook.com/2014/10/23/arrow-what-is-omac-/) is likely to have about as much in common with the source material as Amazo.

Actually, I figure if OMAC does show up, it'll probably be some sort of drone-tank weapons system that gets hacked using Brother Eye and the Arrow crew has to slow it down while Felicity and Ray (since it was produced by his company) figure out a way to crack the hack and stop it.

That would be my guess anyway.

savijmuhdrox
11-08-2014, 03:21 PM
I enjoyed the Starro reference on Claudia.. oops.. Felicity's boyfriends shirt...

Sorry.. my brain was in warehouse 13 mode..

Horsenhero
11-08-2014, 04:49 PM
And it looks as if we're going to get the real answer to who killed Sara and if done right, I'm already looking up the recipe with which to cook and eat my words. Yes Roy is having dreams about killing Sara, but I believe the culprit will actually turn out to be Oliver's or rather the Arrow's deadly crush, Cupid, since she's due to be introduced soon.

Done correctly, I would accept the Arrow's psychotic stalker as Sara's killer despite her never having been seen before. I know I said if a random never before seen killer was introduced I would hate it...but... I could be eating those words soon. It all depends on how it plays out.

Kyle
11-08-2014, 11:09 PM
I am really not looking forward to Cupid showing up. She might be the only archery themed villain/hero that I dislike.

Now, granted, she might turn out better here than she did in the comics where Kreisberg introduced her. Detective Hilton certainly came to a better end in the show than he did in the comics. By which I mean he was only murdered by Solomon Grundy on 'Arrow', not stabbed in the empathy centre of the brain with a knife that can't be removed lest it kill him, and becoming a serial murderer called Hilt, as was the case in GREEN ARROW AND BLACK CANARY.

Considering how bad Kreisberg's run on GREEN ARROW AND BLACK CANARY was, and how bad his New 52 GREEN ARROW run is turning out to be, I'm still a bit staggered that 'Arrow' is as good as it is.

Although, if Cupid is the killer she still needs to be someone that Sara recognised. Which isn't outside the realm of possibility, but it's still poor storytelling.


Unrelated to Sara:

When I mentioned him it reminded me that I'm really surprised that Solomon Grundy seems to be staying dead. When he was killed in the explosion and splashed with a bunch of mirakuru, I was sure he'd be back even stronger, and looking closer to his comic book appearance. I suppose there's nothing preventing that from still happening, but it seems less likely as they progress away from that episode.

While I was looking up what actress will be playing Cupid -- and being reminded that Cupid's real name is Carrie Cutter, because it's not enough that a woman with mental health issues literally carved a heart with an arrow through it on her breast with one of Ollie's arrowheads, because Andrew Kreisberg is just the worst -- I noticed that in episode 8, Digger Harkness -- i.e. Captain Boomerang -- is going to be making an appearance. Hopefully the showrunners will take some cues from 'Flash' and maintain most of the visual elements from his comics appearance.

Horsenhero
11-09-2014, 01:11 AM
I believe Captain Boomerang will be part of the Flash/Arrow cross-over. I'm not 100% certain, but I believe I read somewhere that his appearance would be during that event.

Arthur Eld
11-09-2014, 10:44 AM
I've said this elsewhere (TV Tropes), but when Ollie and Thea are watching a movie in their new apartment (which I like, I don't see why single adult siblings can't live together), its Possessed with Joan Crawford.

It could be a foreshadowing to Cupid (since its about an obsessed woman), but it could also be a hint to Roy's situation. I figured it had meaning because really, the young Queens just happened to pick a film that's nearly 70 years old to watch?

Mr Mole
11-09-2014, 11:45 AM
I've said this elsewhere (TV Tropes), but when Ollie and Thea are watching a movie in their new apartment (which I like, I don't see why single adult siblings can't live together), its Possessed with Joan Crawford.

It could be a foreshadowing to Cupid (since its about an obsessed woman), but it could also be a hint to Roy's situation. I figured it had meaning because really, the young Queens just happened to pick a film that's nearly 70 years old to watch?

I didn't watch closely enough to see if it was the 1931 film (Joan Crawford & Clark Gable) or the 1947 film (Joan Crawford & Van Helfin), as Crawford was in two, very different films titled "Possessed." From what Arthur posted, it sounds like the 1947 film, but I was just wondering...

Kyle
11-09-2014, 12:01 PM
I don't see why single adult siblings can't live together

It's not that I don't think adult siblings shouldn't live together. When my kid sister finished high school and moved to the city, she moved in with me while continuing her education. However, we get along fairly well, she wasn't financially independent at the time and I was able to help out, and, most importantly, neither of us were living secret double lives that we were trying to hide from one another.

Adult children continuing to live with their parents when they could be out on their own is another matter, but I may be biased by my own experiences.

Horsenhero
11-09-2014, 12:07 PM
It's not that I don't think adult siblings shouldn't live together. When my kid sister finished high school and moved to the city, she moved in with me while continuing her education. However, we get along fairly well, she wasn't financially independent at the time and I was able to help out, and, most importantly, neither of us were living secret double lives that we were trying to hide from one another.

Adult children continuing to live with their parents when they could be out on their own is another matter, but I may be biased by my own experiences.

Could be. Modern western culture is one of the few in the world that makes breaking close ties with family a laudable goal. In many parts of the world multiple generations of families live together or very close to one another by choice and tradition. In many respects, the concept of "getting the hell out of dodge" is a cultural aberration.

Arthur Eld
11-09-2014, 07:03 PM
Well with Ollie and Thea I view it as a sad thing, really. Yeah, Ollie should know better but he consistently makes the wrong decision when it comes to his personal life. It's a common thing in media-people good at their job (in his case fighting crime since he doesn't have a real job at the mo) are bad with their private affairs. It's also fairly often true in the real world.

Thea also should know better. So I think this is a case of love making them make poor decisions. Their parents are dead, Moira fairly recently. Their personal lives outside each other are bad-Thea broke up with Roy, Ollie has basically nobody in his life who doesn't know he's the Arrow apart from Thea. They want to be together because of their love, whether or not it's a bad idea.

Plus it gives fuel for incest fanfic writers. And it cuts down on sets. I fully expect it to come back on them, but then the show is a drama.

Kyle
11-12-2014, 09:01 PM
I love it whenever another vigilante shows up and the first thing Oliver does is act like the fact that they've killed makes them the worst scum on the planet.

Ollie: Laurel, I don't trust this guy; he killed someone six years ago!

Laurel: He says that was an accident.

Ted: Yeah, and when it happened, I stopped. I locked away all my gear, and I haven't gone out since.

Ollie: Murder is wrong!

Ted: Wait a second...didn't you kill a whole bunch of guys when you first showed up a couple years ago? Like, a lot? Like, a lot a lot.

Ollie: That was different.

Laurel: Yeah. And you are aware that my sister, whom you were sleeping with, was a professional assassin, right? ...Oliver, do you not know what an assassin is? Oh my god, that's so sad!

Diggle [on the radio]: Look, Oliver, I know it's none of my business, but I gotta agree with them. How many people did you kill on that island you were on? It had to have been close to a hundred.

Ollie: It doesn't matter what happened in the past! There's no excuse for killing, and Ted beat a drug dealer to death six years ago!

~ Flashback to Hong Kong, where Ollie is continuing to murder people at the behest of a shady American intelligence agency ~

This show is dumb.

Horsenhero
11-12-2014, 09:15 PM
Sometimes that is so true. This episode was a great example of self-righteous douchebaggery.

"Everything is either good or bad...depending on MY moral compass."

Ares
11-12-2014, 10:21 PM
Sometimes that is so true. This episode was a great example of self-righteous douchebaggery.

"Everything is either good or bad...depending on MY moral compass."

This is sounding dangerously close to that Wonder Woman pilot Linkara/Nash/Film Brain and sfDebris reviewed.

As someone who's about to start watching the show, it sounds like Season 1 was a real hit or miss rough patch, Season 2 improved significantly, and it sounds like Season 3 has backslid back to Season 1 levels?

Mr Mole
11-12-2014, 10:30 PM
Why has it never occurred to me before this moment that Laurel's & Ollie's names match with Stan Laurel & Oliver Hardy? :eek:

Oh yeah... Tonight's episode... Ummm... Kinda underwhelming for me. Ollie's "self-righteous douchebaggery" had me waiting for Laurel to verbally retaliate... But she just looked hurt and dumbfounded by his words. The Assistant District Attorney isn't real fast with cogent rebuttals, I guess.

Wildcat's a great character and I'm glad he's been introduced in the Arrowverse, but he really deserves a better story.

Now they've decided Roy isn't Sara's killer after all... And I've lost almost all interest at this point in who the real killer is. So now Roy's potentially got the name "Arsenal," totally bypassing "Speedy" or "Red Arrow," while Ollie still hasn't made it past "the Hood" or "the Vigilante."

...And Cupid's just gonna irritate the @#$% out of me... I can already feel it... The character concept is terrible and cliche... And what little dialog we've heard so far makes me wanna smack the writers upside the head.:mad:

Maybe I'm just having an "off" day or something, but there was really nothing in this episode that impressed me.

Compared to the latest Flash, with little details that had me smiling throughout the episode (Detective West's laugh when he was leaving the room after Barry demonstrated his vocal disguise had me almost in stitches)...

Okay, credit where credit it due... I did enjoyed Ollie's boxing glove arrow, at least.:o

Horsenhero
11-12-2014, 10:38 PM
This is sounding dangerously close to that Wonder Woman pilot Linkara/Nash/Film Brain and sfDebris reviewed.

As someone who's about to start watching the show, it sounds like Season 1 was a real hit or miss rough patch, Season 2 improved significantly, and it sounds like Season 3 has backslid back to Season 1 levels?

No. Season 3 is still pretty solid, but occasionally Ollie's "ascension" to being a hero leaves the writers protraying him as something of a hypocrite. Don't get me wrong, I still like this show better than SHIELD or Gotham (despite their improvement) and I believe that everybody is a hypocrite at some point, but the fact that Ollie was lecturing everyone on right and wrong seemed pretty tone deaf.

At its heart, the episode was about not giving up on people who may have slipped from the moral high ground and it contrasted the villain of the episode, Wildcat's old sidekick, who killed someone and was subsequently cut loose by Ted Grant only to then become worse, versus Roy, who may or may not have killed Sara (Black Canary) while fighting off the lingering effects of the miracuru drug he was under the influence of in season 2.

The metaphor wasn't bad and had this been another show (like Gotham) it would have been a fairly strong episode, but for Arrow it was a weaker than usual offering. This season is still in the set-up phase, so the confluence of conflicts is still building and will probably come close to a boiling point around the mid-season break. After the mid-season break tension will probably ratchet up and the focus of the episodes will streamline as they charge toward the season finale. That's how season 2 played out and I'm thinking Marc Guggenheim and the other showrunners are happy with that formula.

Kyle
11-12-2014, 11:07 PM
As someone who's about to start watching the show, it sounds like Season 1 was a real hit or miss rough patch, Season 2 improved significantly, and it sounds like Season 3 has backslid back to Season 1 levels?
Season one was fairly rough all the way through, with a few good episodes interspersed in, and some really, really bad episodes as well. However, the flashbacks are actually pretty good. I don't know if I would have made it through the first season without the flashbacks. Also, the two episode season finale is head and shoulders better than everything else in season one.

In season two they really start to hit their stride. There's a couple rough episodes, and one character who you want to slap every time they're on screen, but nothing really as egregious as season one, with the exception of a return appearance from a season one character. The flashbacks are not as good as either the season one flashbacks, or the present day aspects of season two.

Season three has been fairly rough so far, but not as bad as season one. The flashbacks are pretty awful.


Wildcat's a great character and I'm glad he's been introduced in the Arrowverse, but he really deserves a better story.
I'm sure he'll be around for a while. I kinda hope that if Laurel has some vigilante problem in a future episode, she turns to Ted for help as opposed to Ollie, and he suits up. Hell, I'd like to see another fight between him and Ollie where he gets the upper hand. Wildcat should be a better fighter than the Arrow.

He also deserves a better costume. The just revealed, heavily photoshopped Black Canary costume (http://io9.com/first-look-at-arrows-all-new-black-canary-1657968906) looks pretty great, and as much as I rag on Roy, I think they kinda nailed his costume, too. Hell, Cupid looks closer to her comics appearance than any of them. Why did Komodo and Wildcat look so terrible?

Speaking of costumes, having Diggle run around in a balaclava while Ollie and Roy are wearing leather hoodies just makes all three of them look silly. I don't know if I want him to have a costume, because I like the fact that Dig is pretty much the adult in the group, but didn't he and Ollie agree that he wouldn't be in the field so much this season?


...And Cupid's just gonna irritate the @#$% out of me... I can already feel it... The character concept is terrible and cliche... And what little dialog we've heard so far makes me wanna smack the writers upside the head.:mad:
That's what reading her in the comics was like. Her line was lifted from the comics, which I'm sure was supposed to be a shout-out to the fans, except she's a terrible character who doesn't have any fans.

On the plus side, with Laurel sober and not acting like a complete basket case Ollie is once again the least likeable character on the show, but Cupid will fix that.


Okay, credit where credit it due... I did enjoyed Ollie's boxing glove arrow, at least.:o
Loved that bit!

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b369/axemurderersmurf/boxingglove_zpsd695dcf7.jpg


I believe that everybody is a hypocrite at some point, but the fact that Ollie was lecturing everyone on right and wrong seemed pretty tone deaf.
Green Arrow's hypocrisy is one of the things that makes him not just my favourite superhero, but one of my favourite fictional characters. I should clarify that I specifically mean the post-crisis, pre-Flashpoint Green Arrow. The Green Arrow whom I discovered through the JLU cartoon and and Mike Grell's comics.

I like that he's fallible and has some very human character flaws, and that he's kind of a loud, preachy jerk about some things.

But you're right, the Oliver Queen on 'Arrow' is completely tone deaf. Even back in season one, before he vowed not to kill anymore, he was lecturing at Huntress about how she shouldn't murder people, when he was still completely willing to murder people.

saint_matthew
11-12-2014, 11:31 PM
Green Arrow's hypocrisy is one of the things that makes him not just my favourite superhero, but one of my favourite fictional characters. I should clarify that I specifically mean the post-crisis, pre-Flashpoint Green Arrow. The Green Arrow whom I discovered through the JLU cartoon and and Mike Grell's comics.

Sure, but even in the comics the self defeating nature of the character became tiresome after a while, especially the "vagina is my kryptonite" aspects of the character. My favourite run was volume 3, when Kevin Smith brought him back from the dead, all the way through till the end with Winick. The personality flaws were still their, but they were mostly kept in check, they served the story, rather than detracting from it.

After that I lost interest as it was watered down & stopped being about Star City & its protectors.

Horsenhero
11-12-2014, 11:41 PM
Thanks MrMole, I completely overlooked the boxing glove arrow...I laughed out loud at that bit.

Kyle is right, the flashbacks this season are the weakest so far. That may be a storytelling device the show has run its course with. Maybe not, but the writing on them needs to be tighter. The one thing about the flashbacks in the first and second season was, they were an important part of the story. These kind of feel tacked on, as if the writers were just saying "we had them in the first two seasons, so we should make some for this season too", even though they aren't really important to the narrative.

As for Diggle and his balaclava, I've been of the opinion for a long time that creating this character as John Diggle, a character created for the show, with no previous comic incarnation was a mistake. Bringing him in as Mal Duncan or Jim Harper (both men would take up the Guardian identity), or Tom Tresser (Nemesis) or Christopher Smith (Peacemaker), Dorian Chase (Vigilante) or even Lee Travis (Crimson Avenger) would have given them somewhere to go with him in the established DCU.

Of course Felicity doesn't dress up either, but she's not out punching people in the spleen.

Kyle
11-13-2014, 12:14 AM
Kyle is right, the flashbacks this season are the weakest so far. That may be a storytelling device the show has run its course with. Maybe not, but the writing on them needs to be tighter. The one thing about the flashbacks in the first and second season was, they were an important part of the story. These kind of feel tacked on, as if the writers were just saying "we had them in the first two seasons, so we should make some for this season too", even though they aren't really important to the narrative.
They seem to have written themselves into a corner by having Ollie missing for five years, as opposed to the a few months to a year that he generally spent on the island in the comics, depending who wrote the origin.

Even the first half of season two, the Flashbacks really seemed to be just spinning their wheels.

Of course, Oliver still needs to go to learn to speak Russian and get his Bratva tattoo at some point. I imagine that will be the season four flashbacks.


As for Diggle and his balaclava, I've been of the opinion for a long time that creating this character as John Diggle, a character created for the show, with no previous comic incarnation was a mistake. Bringing him in as Mal Duncan or Jim Harper (both men would take up the Guardian identity), or Tom Tresser (Nemesis) or Christopher Smith (Peacemaker), Dorian Chase (Vigilante) or even Lee Travis (Crimson Avenger) would have given them somewhere to go with him in the established DCU.
I was just thinking Dig would make an excellent Guardian, though I am partial to seeing dudes get hit with a shield.

saint_matthew
11-13-2014, 12:28 AM
I was just thinking Dig would make an excellent Guardian, though I am partial to seeing dudes get hit with a shield.

Oh hell yes. I could totally get behind that.

kingk
11-13-2014, 01:52 PM
As for Diggle and his balaclava, I've been of the opinion for a long time that creating this character as John Diggle, a character created for the show, with no previous comic incarnation was a mistake. Bringing him in as Mal Duncan or Jim Harper (both men would take up the Guardian identity), or Tom Tresser (Nemesis) or Christopher Smith (Peacemaker), Dorian Chase (Vigilante) or even Lee Travis (Crimson Avenger) would have given them somewhere to go with him in the established DCU.

I think the problem is that they probably didn't think that far in the future, where suddenly everybody but Diggle would be running around in costumes. Additionally, if they were, they might not have wanted to put one of those identities in the show, because then we start watching for Diggle to put on a costume, instead of seeing him be the guy who doesn't and reacts as everyone around him does.

That said, I really think he should have been Arsenal, given his proficiency with a number of weapons and the fact that he doesn't focus on just a bow, while Oliver and Roy could have been the Green and Red Arrows, with the public coming up with the names to differentiate between the now two Arrows.

But that's just me.

Spam
11-14-2014, 03:08 PM
I NEVER thought anyone could make the boxing glove arrow cool, but I was mistaken.

Kyle
11-19-2014, 08:20 PM
"Hey, look at this arrowhead that's shaped like a bright red spade. Isn't that funny? It's a spade, like in a deck of playing cards, and it's bright red. Of course, spades aren't bright red; that's the other one. Y'know, diamonds." It's almost like the show wants its viewers to believe that Lance, Ollie, and Dig are the worst investigative minds in Starling City. I was already primed to not like this episode based on my dislike of Cupid, but man, opening it up with the heroes being the dumbest people in dumb town was not a good way to win me over.

I suppose the episode wasn't as bad as I feared it would be. Everything with Felicity and Palmer was good, though Oliver throwing temper tantrums about it was not. The flashback sequence was better than most have been this season, even if it all still seems ultimately pointless. I liked the shout-out to Mike Grell's run on the comics with Sherwood Florist. And the easter egg at the end with Palmer actually got me excited.

Horsenhero
11-19-2014, 10:19 PM
I've got to agree with you on the majority of this. I did like that they actually had a real origin for Cupid instead of "look, crazy stalker girl shows up out of nowhere". Yes, she was crazy, BUT, at least crazy had a backstory, including why she got all fixated on the Arrow.

It even made sense...y'know...as far as bat$#!+ crazy people go.

I liked the A.T.O.M. tease and even liked the Captain Boomerang intro.

I had to laugh at the end though. Handing people over to Waller is becoming this shows equivalent of imprisoning people below STAR labs. Both will probably end the same way too.

Kyle
11-19-2014, 11:15 PM
Cupid's origin was pretty similar to her origin in the comics, except Green Arrow saved her from domestic abuse as opposed to a roided out super criminal. Well, also in the comics it's eventually revealed that she was a former member of an elite covert ops team, and her mind was erased with drugs after a mission went bad.

I really want to know at what point between Waller threatening to murder Katana and her kid if Ollie refused to act as her assassin in Hong Kong, and returning to Starling City, Oliver decided that Waller's not so bad after all. Handing a severely mentally ill person over to be part of her crazy hit squad seems like cruel and unusual punishment even for him.

Obviously I understand that the intent was to set her up as a recurring villain, but there are countless better ways they could have gone about it. Even if they wanted her to explicitly be set-up as part of the Suicide Squad, given everything we've seen, how hard would it be for Waller to have Cupid transferred from a mental care facility into A.R.G.U.S. custody? The only possible benefit of having it play out this way is the comparison to the last woman in the Squad -- i.e. Harley Quinn -- and I still don't think 'Arrow' does itself any favours by constantly measuring itself and its characters against Batman.

saint_matthew
11-20-2014, 01:00 AM
Oh god, my sides: I'm watching the new episode of arrow when the wannabe computer hacker says "statistical correlations do not lie." Oh how I cracked up laughing, because as anyone with half a brain knows statistical correlations lie all the time if you are trying to turn them into a causation.... Heck theirs even a latin term that means exactly that "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" or in English "correlation does not imply causation."

I laughed so hard I almost feel off the chair. :)

Silly TV show, don't try to sound smarter than you actually are, you are just going to embarrass yourself.

Edit: in case anyone is interested there is this hilarious site that tracks Spurious Correlations, is actually called Spurious Correlations. It can be found at: http://www.tylervigen.com/

Mr Mole
11-20-2014, 08:24 AM
I laughed so hard I almost feel off the chair. :)
Math humor... There are just three types of people in the world... Those who understand math and those who don't... Although I generally prefer jokes involving spheres, vacuums and/or frictionless planes...

I wouldn't've been heartbroken if Cupid had met with a fatal accident. Ollie's rationalizations regarding killing or not killing or who should go to prison or who should be sent to work with the Suicide Squad just baffle me. I cannot fathom any sort of organized thought behind his decisions.

The A.T.O.M. and dwarf star alloy references make me wonder if Arrow's closer to showcasing real supers than I'd imagined.

Cap'n Boomerang... I'm generally jazzed to see him show up, although I'd've expected him to show up on Flash first... But am I the only one who thought it sounded more like a slightly mumbled Irish accent than the Australian accent he's had the the last two or three decades?

(NOTE: I'm having a flashback to the episode of Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends where the X-Men had guest appearances and Wolverine sounded Australian instead of Canadian... Very confusing for an eight-year-old.)

(NOTE 2.0: I just looked up Nick Tarabay, who's portraying Boomer, on the interweb. Lebanese-American with a fairly minor accent. I'll just figure on "not Australian" for this iteration. It kinda offsets, since Deathstroke was already portrayed as Australian. I suppose it all evens out.)

Oh, and they've totally lost track of even wondering who Sara's killer is now... Which is fine with me, 'cause I pretty much lost interest when they went from the big reveal that it was Roy to pulling an immediate J.R./Dallas with "it was just a dream."

Overall, the only parts of this episode I particularly enjoyed were the bits foreshadowing future episodes. On its own merit, this one did very little for me.

Ares
11-20-2014, 12:25 PM
I've been doing catch up on Arrow, basically watched all of Seasons 1 and 2 over the course of a week, and am on the 3rd episode of Season 3. After Sara's murder, I've been trying to ponder the who Sara's killer could be. I had a theory, but I decided to check out to see if there were ways you could mess with audio editing tools to clear up voice changers. Turns out someone had a similar idea, so I converted the episode copy I had into an audio file, and then messed with the pitch (upped it between 55 and 65%), and unless they're pulling a fast one, that sounds like Thea's voice (at the very least, it's definitely female). Now, maybe over the next three episodes something will torpedo that, but it actually fits my theory so far. The idea being that Sara wouldn't have automatically reacted to Thea with surprise or alarm, and the three arrow grouping is Malcolm's signature for killing a target, something he could have easily passed on to his daughter.

I think Ollie's little sister has gone over to the dark side.

Horsenhero
11-20-2014, 01:40 PM
That was my thought too, then I read an interview with Andrew Kreisberg where the interviewer pretty much directly asked him whether Thea knew Ollie was the Arrow and Kreisberg said "no". If that's the case, there would have been no real reason for Thea to follow Sara back to the US, since Thea too had left Starling City.

I'm still kind of hoping the killer has a direct connection to the cast and isn't simply a League of Assassins goon working at the behest of Ra's, but it's difficult to say.

On an unrelated subject, can I say that I am so glad that the League of Assassins is the League of Assassins and not the League of Shadows or some other stupid crap. (I swear I'm the only person on the planet who wasn't impressed with Nolan's Batman films.)

Mr Mole
11-20-2014, 01:52 PM
I think Ollie's little sister has gone over to the dark side.

I can't quite picture Sara responding that calmly if Thea showed up on a rooftop carrying a bow and called Sara's name using a voice scrambler thingy while Sara was wearing a mask. Other than that detail, I could totally go with the Thea theory.

Assuming the writers aren't totally screwing with us (as they did with the "Roy's the killer" fiasco), I still have to suspect Felicity's forensic findings play into the scenario. She said (words to the effect of) the evidence wasn't consistent with arrows fired from a normal bow, but being thrown with mirakuru-enhanced strength was consistent... Then again, after watching the scene a few more times, it certainly sounds like a bow is being drawn before each shot... So maybe the writers are, in fact, screwing with us...

I'm also trying to understand Sara's reaction to whoever it was she saw. They said "hello, Sara" (note: she was wearing her mask) and she stopped, faced them and said "what are you doing here?" right before getting three, rapid-fire arrows in her stomach. She looked a bit confused, but not especially alarmed. So I have to assume (possibly incorrectly) that 1) Sara knew her killer, 2) Sara wasn't surprised they knew her dual identity, 3) Sara wasn't especially alarmed by their presence and them potentially having a bow and arrow in their hands.

I still can't think of anyone who's been introduced so far other than Ollie, Roy and Nyssa who fit the bill. That would imply either mind control or someone disguised as one of them. As they already introduced Cupid and (regrettably) didn't kill her off... And if they're going to make out-and-out superpowers a reality in the show... And they wanna irritate me even more than Cupid ever could... Then they could introduce Everyman/Dark Arrow... But I really, really hope they have something else in mind...

Horsenhero
11-20-2014, 02:31 PM
Well, there are a couple avenues yet to explore. This could turn out to be related somehow to the time Ollie spent in Hong Kong. It could turn out to be the Huntress (though that seems awfully unlikely). Since Ra's al Ghul is involved and resurrection is one of his things, it could be Shado. (The last isn't original. The theory has been floated before.)

Even after only two seasons, there are enough possible directions this could go that it's hard to say with any surety they've exhausted their potential surprise killers, even discounting the red (ha!) herring concerning Roy.

The worst part of that episode was Felicity's forensics though. There are only so many accurate flight trajectories an arrow can take. ALL of those trajectories can be achieved with a bow. Unlike throwing an arrow, a bow can exert maximum force to project an arrow. Throwing an arrow would require a great deal of practice since the fletching that stabilizes the flight when fired from a bow, could easily cause an unexpected flight path if thrown.

The only way this works is if Felicity could somehow determine that the arrows had reached their maximum velocity over too short a distance to be achieved with the most common draw weight in bows (and even then it's just an educated guess). What is often misunderstood about projectile weapons is the projectile is still accelerating when it leaves the weapon. An arrow 10 yards from a bow is actually moving faster than one just off the drawstring. The same is true with firearms and hand thrown weapons, except depending on the force behind the projectile, maximum speed is reached at different distances.

Viewed through the lens of someone who understands weapons and the physics behind them, Felicity's forensic analysis is pretty much a load of hooey. I consciously give that a pass because my main goal when watching television is escapist entertainment and if I can believe in the magic physics of the Flash, I can believe in the magic physics of Arrow.

Ares
11-20-2014, 05:35 PM
I think we can all agree that Sara not reacting with alarm to anyone she would know as well as she did walking up to her with a bow and taking aim at her is dumb, so we're just going to have to excuse that as part of the drama. The only excuse being that she was so surprised and the person who shot her was such a fast draw that she didn't have a chance to react when the arrows started flying.

Something else I've noticed after watching Seasons 1 and 2 of Arrow is that this honestly feels like someone wanted to do a Batman series and had to do a Green Arrow one instead. The tone is definitely more Batman than Green Arrow, they're incorporating a lot of Bat-Villains into the series, and the constant flashbacks would have worked much better with Bruce going around training to be the world's greatest detective, as opposed to all of the hoop jumping they need to do to make the 5 years Ollie was gone interesting. The idea of a city that needs saving that badly is also up there.

It isn't a perfect analogy, naturally, as Bruce didn't have any siblings, his mother was also dead, they would have had to change the support staff up a bit, but in terms of tone and general direction, I almost wish these guys could have gotten to do Batman instead of the Gotham show, and let a Green Arrow series have a tone more in line with the Flash.

Horsenhero
11-20-2014, 06:20 PM
I completely disagree, and not just because I loathe Batman (which I honestly do). I think Green Arrow gets a bad rap for being light-hearted, when the best, classic Green Arrow tales were anything but that. The Longbow Hunters wasn't light-hearted and the classic O'Neill/Adams stories weren't either. I think the people here griping about the tone are doing Ollie a huge disservice. Sure, Ollie himself is quite a bit less optimistic than what people are used to seeing and a bit more emo, but I think the tone of the show is just fine. After all, in comics, Green Arrow has dealt with drug addiction, torture, racial unrest in ways Batman hasn't touched and still potentially could on the show. These are issues not suited to a show like the Flash with it's lighter tone.

As for the Batman villains...face it, Green Arrow doesn't have that impressive of a rogues gallery of his own, so yeah, he's going to liberally poach from other characters. Then again, Flash has been poaching from both Captain Atom and Firestorm and nobody seems to be getting twisted over it, so I think this is more a fan problem than a show problem. Personally, I wish the show were a little edgier, not less edgy.

This isn't to say I don't want super-villains, but I'd prefer characters like Kobra, Murmur, Lady Shiva, Tigress, Cheshire, Copperhead, Slipknot or Javelin. If you really want to bring Felicity's expertise into play in a big way, have them run up against Shadow Thief or somebody.

Ares
11-20-2014, 09:04 PM
Something else that points to Thea is Felicity's analysis. She mentions that it was hard to reconcile the angle of the arrows due to several factors, one of which being height of the shooter. Who would have had to be below average height. Like, say, Thea.

Horsenhero
11-20-2014, 09:09 PM
Dang evil midget sisters.:mad:

From my personal p.o.v. though, I think it would be cool (in a really evil way) if either Thea or Lyla turned out to be an antagonist. Diggle's way too happy, so an evil wife would be a perfect remedy.

Kyle
11-20-2014, 11:03 PM
Seeing as Roy has been eliminated, and Cupid was [thankfully] never in the running, my best guess regard Sara's murderer is Huntress. Perhaps a high powered crossbow held low would suit Felicity's forensic analysis of the wounds? She and Sara are familiar with one another, and maybe Sara's reaction to seeing Helena wouldn't be to immediately attack her? Of course, I don't think Helena knew who Sara was under the mask. I dunno. I just really, really don't want the killer to be someone we've never seen before, because there's no one they could pull that off without it being cheap and horribly anti-climatic.


I completely disagree, and not just because I loathe Batman (which I honestly do). I think Green Arrow gets a bad rap for being light-hearted, when the best, classic Green Arrow tales were anything but that. The Longbow Hunters wasn't light-hearted and the classic O'Neill/Adams stories weren't either. I think the people here griping about the tone are doing Ollie a huge disservice. Sure, Ollie himself is quite a bit less optimistic than what people are used to seeing and a bit more emo, but I think the tone of the show is just fine. After all, in comics, Green Arrow has dealt with drug addiction, torture, racial unrest in ways Batman hasn't touched and still potentially could on the show. These are issues not suited to a show like the Flash with it's lighter tone.
There are definitely elements of the Nolan 'Batman' films in 'Arrow', and I don't think it's because the showrunners necessarily wanted to do a Batman show, but probably because they just think those movies are a good example of how to do a street level DC superhero. Which is unfortunate because even though there are similarities between the characters, Green Arrow and Batman are very distinct. Of course, some of the things that I really enjoy about Oliver Queen -- pre New 52 -- including his very outspoken left of centre views probably wouldn't fly so well.

I don't think the tone of the show misses the mark, but rather the Oliver Queen we see on 'Arrow' has very little in common with the Oliver Queen in THE LONGBOW HUNTERS or the rest of Mike Grell's run on the character. In the comics, even when Oliver is dealing with issues like domestic terrorism, human trafficking, and government corruption, he still managed to compartmentalise it so he wasn't dour and broody and Batmaning all over the place. This Oliver Batmans way too hard.


As for the Batman villains...face it, Green Arrow doesn't have that impressive of a rogues gallery of his own, so yeah, he's going to liberally poach from other characters.
Yeah. I don't want to call it a failing, because I love the Mike Grell run, his focus on social and political issues didn't leave much room for recurring villains with distinct gimmicks, and his is easily the most influential work on the character.

Considering how bad some of the more recently created Green Arrow villains have been, I'm glad 'Arrow' seems to be avoiding them. So far as I'm concerned, the best part about the very first episode is that Constantine Drakon died.


This isn't to say I don't want super-villains, but I'd prefer characters like Kobra, Murmur, Lady Shiva, Tigress, Cheshire, Copperhead, Slipknot or Javelin.
I really liked the recent interpretation of the Red Dart from Jeff Lemire's run. She only appeared in a few issues, but she had a cool aesthetic. Killer Moth showed up in Lemire's run as well. The Sportsmaster from 'Young Justice' was a lot of fun, and I think they could do something similar with the character in 'Arrow'. Roulette could make for a cool behind the scenes sort of villain, as could the Calculator. I'd like the Royal Flush Gang to show up again, and maybe this time actually have five members.

There's a bunch of villains that would be well suited for 'Arrow'.

Mr Mole
11-20-2014, 11:32 PM
Seeing as Roy has been eliminated, and Cupid was [thankfully] never in the running, my best guess regard Sara's murderer is Huntress. Perhaps a high powered crossbow held low would suit Felicity's forensic analysis of the wounds? She and Sara are familiar with one another, and maybe Sara's reaction to seeing Helena wouldn't be to immediately attack her? Of course, I don't think Helena knew who Sara was under the mask. I dunno. I just really, really don't want the killer to be someone we've never seen before, because there's no one they could pull that off without it being cheap and horribly anti-climatic.

I can't actually remember anymore if Helena ever knew Sara's secret identity... So I'll have to ruminate on that one a bit, as the rest is plausible... Except that the few times I've ever seen crossbow bolts, they were noticeably shorter than arrows (not that I'm any sort of authority on the subject). Still, it's a theory.


Something else that points to Thea is Felicity's analysis. She mentions that it was hard to reconcile the angle of the arrows due to several factors, one of which being height of the shooter. Who would have had to be below average height. Like, say, Thea.
That's a good point.

Really, the only thing keeping Thea off my list is Sara's reaction. I could easily be mistaken, but as far as I can recall, Sara wouldn't've had any reason to believe Thea would know she was the Black Canary... So I just can't picture it going down that way... But as I said, it's entirely possible that I'm totally mistaken.

All that said, for all I know, we could end up back with Roy as the killer before it's all settled... Or Ollie. Roy has a history of psychotic behavior and amnesia and Ollie's done more than a little wetwork for people who'd've been happy to scramble his brains and turn him into some sort of sleeper agent.

Once again, my mind goes to Ollie, Roy and Nyssa... Or someone very convincingly disguised as one of them... As the suspects with means (bow & arrow) and opportunity (wouldn't be met with suspicion under the circumstances). What none of them seems to have is a motive, which would be where some sort of imposter or mind control could come into play.

I'm not confident enough in the evidence to put money on who did it just yet.

saint_matthew
11-21-2014, 12:57 AM
Personally I'm over the whole flashback as a framing device thing.

Spam
11-25-2014, 09:34 AM
Sadly, Sarah seems to be the only woman Oliver has dated who cant catch arrows.

saint_matthew
11-26-2014, 01:39 AM
Sadly, Sarah seems to be the only woman Oliver has dated who cant catch arrows.

I don't know, she seem to catch all those arrows.... Albeit in the same way that a bear disarms a bear trap.

Ares
12-03-2014, 09:12 PM
I thought part 2 of the team up was actually well done. It was really nice to see a Captain Boomerang who was a dangerous threat, as well as see Barry actually stand up to Oliver and be right. Ollie really should have known he was kind of messed up in his thinking if he was quoting Amanda Waller, when this show has one of the most out and out villainous portrayals of her. Ollie, you don't want to be quoting the woman who was going to bomb your city into a crater just to deal with a couple dozen super soldiers.

I also loved how Barry just shut down Ollie's argument about the people he's lost. "I saw my mother murdered too. But I don't use my personal tragedy as an excuse to beat up people I don't like." Dear Lord but it was nice to hear a hero say that. I'm not a fan of Barry getting a tragic backstory when traditionally he was just a good guy who wanted to be a cop, but I love them showing how a guy who suffered that kind of tragedy can still be a happy, optimistic, friendly and genuinely good person. I could have easily seen classic Billy Batson saying that line, and to Nu-Billy Batson.

I also liked the interaction between the two teams, how Roy and Team Arrow actually enjoyed having the other guys over. Cisco getting out over the Arrow's tech, getting Ollie a new outfit and gear and Ollie actually being appreciative of it was really cool too. Hopefully this means we'll get more trick arrows out of the series.

I think the one misstep was having Captain Boomerang being sent to Ollie's island prison. I was so hoping we'd get a stinger of Boomerang being hauled off to jail, only for the transport he was in to get taken out and the door ice up and shatter, and then Captain Cold appears with Heatwave behind him. "Mr. Harkness. I'm Captain Cold. I have a job offer for you." I understand they have to put Digger on the island because he knows where Team Arrow hides out, but to me that could have been solved by just not having him find the Arrow Cave, just have them put Lyla at a different location and have Digger find her there.

Horsenhero
12-03-2014, 10:33 PM
Naw, they put Digger on the island so he could get shipped back to the Suicide Squad because more comics fans care about Captain Boomerang as a member of the squad than they do as one of the less respected members of Flash's rogues gallery.

Captain Cold, Heatwave, Rainbow Raider...I mean Prism, Weather Wizard, Reverse-Flash, Girder and even the (guaranteed to be introduced because I read an interview with Greg Berlanti) Pied Piper are best known and enjoyed for their appearances in Flash.

Despite first appearing in the Flash, Captain Boomerang is a Suicide Squad guy.

That's why the island. For the television shows, Harkness is thematically a better fit for Ollie than Barry. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

Kyle
12-03-2014, 11:39 PM
Barry telling off Ollie would be a lot more satisfying if I thought it would stick. Granted, this season has had fewer episodes where Oliver has needed to relearn the value of friendship after treating everyone in his life like dirt, but he is still a jackass. Captain Boomerang was a lot of fun, but they did lean a bit heavily on the boomerang puns. Having all the support come together to save the day at the end was a really nice moment.

How did Harkness find his way into the arrowcave? Did he just walk through the club, and find the door that Thea can't figure out how to open?

saint_matthew
12-04-2014, 03:17 AM
Barry telling off Ollie would be a lot more satisfying if I thought it would stick.

Hey Ollie learnt "murdering people is bad" last season.... I'm sure he can possibly learn the power of friendship in this season... Might take him the entire season to learn that lesson, since Ollies pretty slow.


How did Harkness find his way into the arrowcave? Did he just walk through the club, and find the door that Thea can't figure out how to open?

That's what I said on the Flash thread.... Apparently we are having cross over conversations about a cross over, how very meta.

How is it that the Arrow-Cave doesn't have a security system of some kind? Is it like how Ollie doesn't have a tricked out motorcycle but should? I mean how hard would it have been to have her get hit up stairs on the dance floor when she was going for ice or some other lame excuse *ahem* I mean plot convenience.

Kyle
12-04-2014, 07:05 AM
I really can't think of a single in world reason why the arrowcave is still under the club. I get that it's convenient for team Arrow to interact with Thea on the rare occasion that they need to, but, if you include Nyssa, there are now five supervillains that I can think of, ARGUS and probably the whole League of Assassins who are all aware of where the Arrow hangs his hood. Considering Thea is Verdant's owner and operator, not Ollie, the Arrow crew doesn't even really even have an excuse as to why they occasionally show-up, and then sneak off down an access corridor. Granted, there is probably a second entrance so they don't actually have to walk through the club, but still, it's time to move.

Mr Mole
12-04-2014, 07:44 AM
I enjoyed this episode slightly less than I did its Flash predecessor, but I think this one was needed far more. There were a lot of fun moments, which was a huge (and welcome) change of pace for the show. I really, really hope Barry's influence on Ollie continues to affect his outlook. Barry can learn strategy and tactics from Ollie, Ollie can learn to not be a schmuck from Barry, and everyone comes out ahead... especially me.

Psistrike
12-10-2014, 05:36 PM
I knew it! Spoiler in white: Thea did it but was under control of Merlyn at the time and has no memories of it. And this is the mid-season/winter finale and we have to wait a month and a half or more before it continues.

Arthur Eld
12-10-2014, 06:52 PM
At first I thought it was too soon for a fight between those two, since the baddie was all hype (despite his training session-I mean we got two seasons of Slade is a badass), but they did a good job.

I have to admit, despite not fitting my vision (or audio version) of Ra's, Nable is doing a good job. And he's impressive shape for an older guy. That 67 years line was great, for the doors it opens up without sounding like overblown theatricality.

Despite having very very few redeeming qualities (like none) as a fictional person, I want more Nyssa. And only partly cause of Katrina Law.

Horsenhero
12-10-2014, 07:23 PM
I figured that the mid-season finale wouldn't go well for Oliver...when has it? Still, I liked the overall tone and the way things played out. I also like the fact that despite Oliver's sacrifice, Thea will be facing a far less sympathetic enemy in the future (Laurel). Felicity's response to Ray's "I'm going to save this city" bit was fun too. I enjoyed the scenes with Ra's, though like Eld, he doesn't match my imagined image of the character and Nyssa is always awesome.

I know there are going to be viewers upset at the downbeat tone, but Arrow isn't a happy ending sort of show. Myself, I enjoyed it as much as the Flash finale, despite not being a beacon of lightness and hope.

Ares
12-10-2014, 08:04 PM
Called it back on page 6. : )

Kyle
12-10-2014, 08:24 PM
So, the League of Assassins' method for investigating murder was to kill 50 people a day until the killer came forth? I don't understand how any part of that plan makes sense. Also really not feeling the whole ends justify the means approach to torture. It's like the show runners, in their effort to make the show dark and gritty, just made a list of shitty things people do, and are shoehorning that list in regardless of how logical it might be. I was actually relieved when Ray Palmer said the mirakuru soldiers just murdered his fiancée, because with the long pause I was pretty certain he was going to say he watched them gang rape her.

There's a line that Dig says about Ollie being one of the smartest men he's ever met. Has Diggle just not met very many people, or is he an excellent liar?

Despite being my first suspect, it never occurred to me that Thea might have been under a form of mind control when she killed Sara, yet it was the first thing I thought about when they were teasing Roy as the killer.

The fight between Ra's and Ollie was pretty good. Matt Nable does manage a good Ra's, though his accent is pretty heavy.

So, second half of the season: Ollie wakes up in a Lazarus pit several months later, fathers Damian Wayne with the heretofore unseen Talia, and returns to the newly rechristened Star City to find that the Atom has completely revitalised the city.

Mr Mole
12-10-2014, 10:24 PM
Interesting.

Thea, while by no means the top of my suspects list, was pointed out by many to be the likely killer. They pulled it off reasonably well, although I still don't see Sara reacting to seeing Thea on a rooftop in full "black archer" gear like she did. Oh well.

Felicity and Ray... Overall, nice. I very amped at how they seem to be moving full steam toward a real Atom appearance... And Felicity's reactions to the people around her are just so darned perfect. Ollie's line to Felicity before going off to face his fate... I dunno 'bout that part... It just seemed so doomed to failure... But it was (in context) a decent decision for him to say it. Makes him seem slightly less a schmuck.

The cliffhanger? I really hadn't given it any thought ahead of time, but I didn't see that particular wrinkle coming. Maybe I should have, but I was just kinda left going "oh." Sure, we all know there's no way it's going to stick, but it was (for me at least) an interesting way to end the episode.

danelsan
12-11-2014, 11:54 AM
So, the League of Assassins' method for investigating murder was to kill 50 people a day until the killer came forth? I don't understand how any part of that plan makes sense.
And that is how they became this enormous organization. It was a necessity. You see, they adopted that method back when they started. Every so often, they ended up probably killing the killer among the those waves of 50 people, making it impossible for the killer to come forth. Now they have to keep killing at least 50 people every day for each time that happened, forever. Ras is big on tradition, so he couldn't just let it go, you know. And that is why he had to make sure his organization grew so much, in order to keep up wit hall the murdering that had to be done.


Jokes aside, it is probably based on stuff like the stories of Vlad Dracul telling merchants that they could leave their goods/money anywhere in his land without fear of being robbed, because if it happened, Vlad would order people killed until the robber was presented. That is, the people, afraid, would unite efforts and find the perpetrator (though, if there is even any truth to such a story, it was probably more likely that it would get a scape goat than the actual criminal).

EDIT: Also, anyone else annoyed that this show keeps pulling herbs that are effectively magical out of nowhere? There is the herb that cures any poison nearly instantaneously and does miracles to all sorts of nasty wounds, now there is the herb that allows such effective and powerful suggestions as to be basically mind control (with convenient amnesia too). I was especially annoyed because this mind control one was a big asspull, with no foreshadowing whatsoever. I'm almost expecting they explaining the lazarus pit as an infusion of a rare herb that brings people back from the dead.

Kyle
12-11-2014, 12:26 PM
EDIT: Also, anyone else annoyed that this show keeps pulling herbs that are effectively magical out of nowhere? There is the herb that cures any poison nearly instantaneously and does miracles to all sorts of nasty wounds, now there is the herb that allows such effective and powerful suggestions as to be basically mind control (with convenient amnesia too). I was especially annoyed because this mind control one was a big asspull, with no foreshadowing whatsoever. I'm almost expecting they explaining the lazarus pit as an infusion of a rare herb that brings people back from the dead.

I was surprised that during the Flash crossover, when Lyla got hit with the bladearang, that instead of using Ollie's magic heal-all pine needles, they had the Barry run her to a hospital. Being carried at supersonic speeds seems like the sort of thing that would exacerbate a deep cut.

As for the mind control herb, it would have been better had they laid some ground work to establish that it exists before hand -- like if Merlyn had used it on some of the previous villains this season -- Komodo, Cupid, Wildkitten's sidekick -- to keep Ollie off balance as opposed to just having them all show up to be rando villain villain of the week, but I don't think it's too far out there. Better than having Thea go from petulant and bratty to stone cold killer in a matter of months, anyway.

Yeoman
12-11-2014, 12:41 PM
So... sword fighting Ra's al Ghul while stripped to the waist... this really is just a Batman show with the numbers filed off...

Horsenhero
12-11-2014, 02:37 PM
None of this stuff would be a big deal in a comic book, but because it's on television suddenly it's wrong or bad?

As for this being "Batman with the numbers filed off"...that's an opinion, however by this point in the series, the fact that Oliver has a sword fight shouldn't surprise anyone. He's not unfamiliar with sword combat and has shown a degree of training with a variety of weapons besides the bow. The bow and arrow is simply his weapon of choice.

The biggest complaint I keep reading is that "this isn't Oliver", which leads me to believe nobody has read a single Green Arrow solo story...ever. Green Arrow was only ever the wisecracking jokester in his JLA appearances. His solo titles always have him as a serious man, with strong political leanings (pretty left-wing actually), at least since the 60's. Sure, in this show he's a bit grimmer than he is in the comics, BUT, he also has a far more in depth and tragedy laden origin than his "he spent three weeks on an island where he met a small group of incompetent drug smugglers" origin from the comics.

Point of fact, for people who haven't read any of the older GA stuff, one of the reasons he was stripped of his fortune was the editorial and writing staff at DC wanted to make his a bit less like Batman. This was also the basis for his cleaving toward the liberal end of the spectrum. It allowed him to play off other, more conservative, "pro-establishment", members of the JLA (Batman, Green Lantern, Hawkman) by presenting a different social viewpoint. However, never...never...never...in his solo stories was he presented as a hero in the Spider-Man mold. Not in the O'Neill/Adams stories of the 70's, not in the Grell stories of the '90's. Not in any Green Arrow solo title actually. The light-hearted, joker of a character everyone seems to remember only appeared in the pages of the JLA.

And when they killed Ollie off to "reboot" the franchise, they replaced him with Connor Hawke, an even grimmer version of the character, whose personality influences the television Green Arrow a great deal. I would expect, as they add more metahumans to Oliver's world, he will become even more serious, since he's a regular guy fighting characters with super-powers and since the same writers and showrunners responsible for the Flash handle Arrow, I imagine his inherent disadvantage in such situations will be on full display. That means in order to win, he'll have to even more creative and ruthless in the application of his talents. Not backsliding into the lethalality of the first season, but ruthless, after all, Oliver (like any non-powered character) could barely keep up with Barry in combat during training, where nobody is trying to do serious damage.

Plus, if the upcoming "Supergirl" show ends up existing in the same fictional universe (which since Berlanti is again the executive producer, it's been hinted that it will despite being on a different network), expect Oliver to have to take it to another level still. So, if you don't care for the show as it now (and to read this thread, it sounds like many don't), prepare for yet more disappointment next year.

Just sayin'.

Kyle
12-11-2014, 03:25 PM
I'm going to have to disagree, Horsenhero, at least to an extent. I haven't read many of Ollie's JLA appearances, but I do have the majority of his solo appearances since the Denny O'Neil GREEN LANTERN / GREEN ARROW run. You're right that he's never been as quippy as Spider-Man, but even during Mike Grell's run -- which are the comics that made Oliver my favourite superhero -- he was never dour. Angry in situations that called for it, which were frequent, but he very rarely brooded. He still made jokes.

It's one of reasons why I prefer Ollie to be older. During Grell's run, he started in his mid-forties, and aged in real time. I think being older give a character like Oliver the opportunity to be more mature. To compartmentalise, and understand that he doesn't always need to be "on." That Oliver Queen is able to go home to at the end of the day, and smile, and be playful with Dinah. Obviously you can't have a CW show about a dude even in his mid-to-late thirties, but I really do feel that having Ollie be a young man takes away something from the character.

And I get that the CW Ollie is not my Green Arrow. I'm fine with that. Just as I'm fine with the New 52 Ollie not being my Green Arrow, yet I really, really enjoyed Jeff Lemire's run on the book. Of course, the Green Arrow that exists in my mind is a cross between Mike Grell's and the character that appeared in the JLU cartoons, which hasn't really existed in the comics.

However, I do think it's fair to call out the show for it's faults. A lot of the things about the show that don't make sense wouldn't get a pass in the comics either. The way Waller runs A.R.G.U.S. and the League of Shadow's ridiculous policy of mass murder to root out murderers are dumb regardless of what medium they're presented in. It's fair to call out the show for being sloppy in the way it's presenting ideas. Comics probably get away with a similar lack of character development, but that's only because the characters are already established; CW Oliver doesn't learn from his mistakes, and it's frustrating.

Horsenhero
12-11-2014, 03:41 PM
Except for the fact that the CW seems functionally incapable of having a lead character over 25, I disagree with you pretty much. However, in recognition that neither one of us is likely to budge the other on an issue of personal taste...I've said my piece.

danelsan
12-11-2014, 04:08 PM
However, I do think it's fair to call out the show for it's faults. A lot of the things about the show that don't make sense wouldn't get a pass in the comics either. The way Waller runs A.R.G.U.S. and the League of Shadow's ridiculous policy of mass murder to root out murderers are dumb regardless of what medium they're presented in. It's fair to call out the show for being sloppy in the way it's presenting ideas.

Agreed. Especially since we are dealing with a more serious superhero story. If it was some kind of crazy, lighthearted romp, I would be more forgiving of a lot of things. If it was the Green Arrow from Batman: The Brave and the Bold cartoon, he could have a anti-poison arrow and I wouldn't complain. But given the tone of the show? Yeah, I expect things to make a lot more sense.

saint_matthew
12-11-2014, 05:47 PM
So, the League of Assassins' method for investigating murder was to kill 50 people a day until the killer came forth? I don't understand how any part of that plan makes sense.

Oh it totally does not make sense.... Much like many things in the Arrow series, very few of the characters act in a way that is congruent with human experience or even the reality of the show.

Stormson
12-12-2014, 02:22 PM
I feel the show runners missed an epic trolling opportunity by having the "Next time" teaser show Routh running around in Atom Armor, saving Starling City, with a "Be here for the Atom in January!".

Dragonblade
12-12-2014, 11:57 PM
So, the League of Assassins' method for investigating murder was to kill 50 people a day until the killer came forth? I don't understand how any part of that plan makes sense.

Its not about hoping the killer comes forth so much as it is about forcing others to find the killer for them. Its medieval-style terror and brutality. Something the League is all about.

For example, the Roman empire threatened things like that to keep conquered people and/or their enemies in line. "If you kill one of our centurions, then we kill one hundred of your people!"

Kyle
01-21-2015, 09:22 PM
Other than some dodgy wire work when Roy is fighting, I really liked this episode. Even Brick was fun, and I really dislike the comics version. Of course, Vinny Jones is usually entertaining.

Horsenhero
01-21-2015, 10:49 PM
Yeah, I liked this episode as well. I thought Felicity's breakdown was well done and I liked Laurel's reaction to the news that Oliver is dead. Actually, I liked both her reactions. At first she's insistant he's alive, after all he's been presumed dead before and then when they had "proof" of his death, she goes all Black Canary and whups on some bad guys. Vinnie Jones was good as Brick, though after his turn on Galavant I have a hard time not chuckling whenever he speaks. Even the Hong Kong flashback subplot came full circle in this one.

Man alive though, I really, really, really want somebody to flat out kick Amanda Waller's ass. Of all the villains introduced on the show, I hate her the most. Malcom Merlyn has almost no redeeming qualities and I still hate Waller more.

Kyle
01-22-2015, 12:34 AM
Waller is objectively the worst. She doesn't even seem to have any motivation beyond making the lives of everyone she encounters miserable.

Laurel's line about being, "the justice [criminals] can't run from," is pretty great. Not because it's a good Black Canary line, but rather because it's a good Daredevil line. If her M.O. is going to be to pursue guys who manage to slip through the system, I'm very much on board.

If Brick sticks around, I'm half expecting it to be revealed that he is one of Slade's mirakuru soldiers. Maybe even the one who killed Palmer's fiancée.

saint_matthew
01-22-2015, 01:09 AM
Other than some dodgy wire work when Roy is fighting

The bullet proof police cars complete with bullet proof windows at the start annoyed me more than the wire work did. I'm sorry WB but pulling the whole "the bullets aren't hitting anything vital" shtick from action movies only works when its not at near point blank range, with the weak point being the biggest target & near impossible to miss.

badpenny
02-03-2015, 01:45 PM
Brandon Routh in his Atom suit: (http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/atom-costume-arrow-ray-palmer-brandon-routh-1201422663/)

https://pmcvariety.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/ar315c_atom_0001_w2-v.jpg?w=670

Horsenhero
02-03-2015, 02:08 PM
Pretty cool. I wonder whether he'll be able to shrink or whether he'll end up more punchy and strengthy, like the original Atom.

On an unrelated subject (to the A.T.O.M. suit) I was reading a little snippet of a conversation posted about the philosophical differences between writing Flash and Arrow. It was pretty interesting. Despite sharing a creative team, the two shows are approached very differently. With Flash the writers follow a guideline of bringing the core cast together as close friends. With Arrow, apparently the guiding principle is (and I quote), "what's the worst thing we can do to these people?"

That's right. Central City is about showing your protagonists love and Starling City is about torturing them.

Kyle
02-03-2015, 03:53 PM
Sold! It would be nicer if the black was blue -- even a dark blue -- but otherwise I'm on board with that costume.


On an unrelated subject (to the A.T.O.M. suit) I was reading a little snippet of a conversation posted about the philosophical differences between writing Flash and Arrow. It was pretty interesting. Despite sharing a creative team, the two shows are approached very differently. With Flash the writers follow a guideline of bringing the core cast together as close friends. With Arrow, apparently the guiding principle is (and I quote), "what's the worst thing we can do to these people?"

That's right. Central City is about showing your protagonists love and Starling City is about torturing them.
I guess it's no wonder 'The Flash' is a better show, out of the gate. Making your protagonists miserable all the time sounds like such a drag.

Kyle
02-05-2015, 12:29 AM
Nitpicking:

- Malcolm Merlyn managed to hack into the webcam in the Arrowcave? C'mon, Felicity, you're able to perform hacking feats that could only be explained by sort of magic powered by keyboard strokes, but you can't notice when someone else is piggybacking on your feed?

- A corollary to the first nitpick: they really need to relocate the Arrowcave. It's gotten so bad the characters themselves are now exasperated when Merlyn shows up.

- The police had 24 hours to clear out of the Glades. That seems like it should have been plenty of time to empty the evidence room. Or at least not leave a bunch of shotguns lying around.

- What was with the fire in the Glades precinct? Was it started when Brick shot the flare? If so, how did it spread to the upper floor so fast, that moments later when Brick shoots the ceiling, the whole thing collapses?

- People charging at one another with modern firearms always looks dumb.

- If Wildkitten is going to stick around -- which I hope he does despite the fact that he's like twenty-five years too young -- he needs a real costume. Maybe not the full on cat mask, but he looks just as silly running around in a balaclava alongside Roy and Laurel as Dig does.

- Merlyn claims to have killed 503 people, which would account for all the deaths from the Undertaking, but ignore the other people we've seen him kill more up close and personal. Presumably his time with the League of Assassins wasn't bloodless, either.

- Oliver doing his zipline arrow trick seems like something likely to pop some stitches.

All that aside, I actually really liked this episode. It was good to see Sin again, though kind of disappointing to learn that no one informed her of Sara's death. At least they didn't string her along like they have Lance, but man these people are terrible humans. I'm really glad it looks like that plot thread is going to be wrapped up soon. Speaking of Lance, I'm once again flustered: he's able to recognise Roy in costume, but not Ollie? I've been operating under the assumption that Lance knows Ollie is the Arrow, because otherwise he's terrible at his job, and he chooses to act as though he doesn't know, to protect them both. However, Lance being willing to out Roy seems to invalidate that theory.

More Merlyn flashbacks would have been nice. Especially if they revealed why he's so ageless.

I'm a little bit disappointed that Tatsu didn't return to Starling with Oliver. However, I'm sure at some point Ra's or Nyssa will kill Maseo and Tatsu will have to take up his sword. Also, the whole spiel about only a student being able to defeat the master seems like a really contrived way of forcing Ollie and Merlyn to work together.

Man, I'm complaining a lot, but I did like this episode....

Horsenhero
02-05-2015, 01:03 AM
My big gripe...and this is probably going to strike some folks as ridiculously petty...is that Maseo, not Tatsu is the badass of that family, when in the comics he's wormfood and she's the badass. I'm not really sure why it's that particular detail that annoys me, but it is.

Yeah, Wildcat needs a costume.

The "Arrowcave" (thanks for that Felicity) needs to be relocated.

Malcolm Merlyn needs to...go on vacation or something. I realize he's Oliver's arch-enemy and all, but I'm kind of worn out when it comes to the character.

I loved Detective Lance's comment about Arsenal's codename. Too funny.

I would be down with a return for Brick, (Vinnie Jones is a scene stealing machine) but not too soon.

Felicity just needs to hook up with Ray. They're a better match than her and Ollie.

Diggle needs a costumed identity. I know the showrunners are hesitant because he was created for the show and thus has no comic book basis, but if they can make Wildcat barely past puberty, they could find an underused DC character to copy/paste onto Dig. Guardian or Midnight or Crimson Avenger or Gravedigger (yes, I know he's technically a war comic character, but I'm stretching a little) or something.

Or not. On the other hand, the number of costumes in Starling City is really seeing a growth spurt, so maybe keeping Dig and Thea out of costume is a good thing. I mean, it's not Gotham or NYC crowded, but it's doing okay.

Finally...did I mention that Tatsu being kinda weaksauce is a never ending source of annoyance to me? 'Cause if I didn't...

Kyle
02-05-2015, 02:08 AM
My big gripe...and this is probably going to strike some folks as ridiculously petty...is that Maseo, not Tatsu is the badass of that family, when in the comics he's wormfood and she's the badass. I'm not really sure why it's that particular detail that annoys me, but it is.
Well, Ollie seems to hold her skills with a sword in fairly high esteem. I'm not overly familiar with comic Katana, but the Soultaker was Maseo's before he died, right? Pretty sure he's not going to live through to the end of the season.


Felicity just needs to hook up with Ray. They're a better match than her and Ollie.
Absolutely. When she said she didn't want to be the woman Oliver loves, I was unreasonably happy.


Diggle needs a costumed identity. I know the showrunners are hesitant because he was created for the show and thus has no comic book basis, but if they can make Wildcat barely past puberty, they could find an underused DC character to copy/paste onto Dig. Guardian or Midnight or Crimson Avenger or Gravedigger (yes, I know he's technically a war comic character, but I'm stretching a little) or something.
Guardian would be my choice, but Crimson Avenger, or the Question, or any number of DC identities would probably fit the bill. Or he could just hang out in the Arrowcave, run tactics and be the voice of reason. Whatever. I'm fine with Dig having or not having a costume and codename. My real desire to see fewer good guys wearing balaclavas.


Or not. On the other hand, the number of costumes in Starling City is really seeing a growth spurt, so maybe keeping Dig and Thea out of costume is a good thing. I mean, it's not Gotham or NYC crowded, but it's doing okay.
There is that, but I still think it's cool in this ridiculous world posited by the shows that all it takes is for one guy to show up wearing a goofy outfit, and suddenly costumed crimefighters are coming out of the woodwork. With Atom, Vixen, and Supergirl all getting their own shows apparently occupying that same world, there's going to have to be some much needed expansion.

saint_matthew
02-05-2015, 02:28 AM
That might have been the best episode yet.

saint_matthew
02-12-2015, 04:22 AM
I really wish they would give Roy some actual screen time, maybe an actual plot arc of his own. Maybe develop his character some more, because at the moment he's just kind of a pal imitation of Ollie as the Arrow. Maybe give him a bigger arsenal of specific weapons, maybe some explosives, or give him a different fighting style. so far he's been shown wielding Tonfas but he never actually uses them. Maybe have Roy focus on the tech side of things to compensate for his lack of fighting skills, maybe focus on the motorcycle skills.

Stormson
02-12-2015, 06:46 AM
He's used the tonfas (though I thought they were escrima sticks) several times when someone attacks him at close range.

Also, I think arrow is going to have this arc of middling opening half, awesome second half, for each season. Last night's episode was probably my favorite of the season, because it had mini-payoffs on multiple plot hooks they've been setting up all season.

Horsenhero
02-12-2015, 08:59 AM
It was a fun epsiode and it was vry interesting to see how Oliver reacted to the new paradigm. Watching three different characters essentially say...you're not the boss of me...was a fun (and necessary for the shows' growth) eye opener.

And I was glad to see the DJ get gacked. I was so worried they were going to drag out that subplot way longer than necessary.

Helluva way for Captain Lance to find out Sarah's dead, but again, a necessary development. The fact he was able to put two and two together after Laurel decked the drugged cop and figure out she's Black Canary restores my faith in him as a detective (even in a comicbook world where police detectives can be amazingly thick-headed).

I agree Roy needs some attention, but I really want them to do something with Diggle...and not turn him into Green Lantern like the rumors have been circulating. That simply writes him out of the show. They don't have the budget for Green Lantern.

I really dug Thea's reaction to Oliver's big reveal because it showed neither Ollie nor Malcolm know her as well as they think. The only thing I didn't buy into was her complete about face on Malcolm. He still saved her life when he didn't have to and that should make her feelings more complicated than they were. There's just no middle ground with that girl.

Anyway, it was a good episode that not only wrapped up some plot hooks, but had some good character growth for Thea, Laurel and Roy, which has been long overdue. Ollie and Malcolm both got their respective noses tweaked as well, which was also long overdue.

And by the end of the season I really want to see someone punch Amanda Waller in the mouth. Really.

savijmuhdrox
02-12-2015, 10:17 AM
It was a fun epsiode and it was vry interesting to see how Oliver reacted to the new paradigm. Watching three different characters essentially say...you're not the boss of me...was a fun (and necessary for the shows' growth) eye opener.

And I was glad to see the DJ get gacked. I was so worried they were going to drag out that subplot way longer than necessary.

Helluva way for Captain Lance to find out Sarah's dead, but again, a necessary development. The fact he was able to put two and two together after Laurel decked the drugged cop and figure out she's Black Canary restores my faith in him as a detective (even in a comicbook world where police detectives can be amazingly thick-headed).

I agree Roy needs some attention, but I really want them to do something with Diggle...and not turn him into Green Lantern like the rumors have been circulating. That simply writes him out of the show. They don't have the budget for Green Lantern.

I really dug Thea's reaction to Oliver's big reveal because it showed neither Ollie nor Malcolm know her as well as they think. The only thing I didn't buy into was her complete about face on Malcolm. He still saved her life when he didn't have to and that should make her feelings more complicated than they were. There's just no middle ground with that girl.

Anyway, it was a good episode that not only wrapped up some plot hooks, but had some good character growth for Thea, Laurel and Roy, which has been long overdue. Ollie and Malcolm both got their respective noses tweaked as well, which was also long overdue.

And by the end of the season I really want to see someone punch Amanda Waller in the mouth. Really.

I feel like this show keeps robbing me of the come-uppances I really desire. Friggin DJ takes poison.. really? Come onnnn.. throw him out the window already.. (at least Dr. Tsing on The 100 got her due.. yeah!!)

and I really can't watch the Queen/Merlyn family drama.. especially with the olifant in the room as to who killed Sarah.. it just doesn't make sense to me that Thea hasn't played the 'Keep-Asking-Why' game about the league coming to kill them; you know.. the game that ends with "oh right, YOU killed Sarah.. ah ha haha.. let's be off now"

Diggle is great as Diggle.. he doesn't need anything. Sure, give him some of his own storyline, but he doesn't need a costume or a power ring or any of that nonsense..

Stormson
02-12-2015, 12:05 PM
I dunno, I could be down for the idea of Diggle as GL just because it recreates the GL/GA partnership, even if it's different. But I thought the actor was being considered for a movie role, not as part of this series.

And they have the budget for flash and atom, they have the budget for GL, probably.

Kyle
02-12-2015, 12:34 PM
He's used the tonfas (though I thought they were escrima sticks)
I don't think we've seen Roy using any tonfas -- though Laurel has started carrying one the past couple episodes -- but he has definitely pulled out a pair of batons on occasion.


I agree Roy needs some attention, but I really want them to do something with Diggle...and not turn him into Green Lantern like the rumors have been circulating. That simply writes him out of the show. They don't have the budget for Green Lantern.

...

And by the end of the season I really want to see someone punch Amanda Waller in the mouth. Really.
There's an upcoming episode that looks like it's going to focus on Diggle and the suicide squad. I bet Waller looks great by the end of it.

I still can't fathom how we're supposed to buy that Oliver is willing to have anything to with Waller after what she's done, and I'm guessing we haven't seen her at her lowest, yet.

savijmuhdrox
02-12-2015, 01:10 PM
I still can't fathom how we're supposed to buy that Oliver is willing to have anything to with Waller after what she's done, and I'm guessing we haven't seen her at her lowest, yet.


I'm still waiting for the story arc where she gets short and fat.

Stormson
02-12-2015, 01:48 PM
Well, it explains the hostility from when they first met in the series. Ollie gave the vibe that if it was not for deathstroke, he would not have worked with Waller at all.

Kyle
02-12-2015, 02:04 PM
Well, it explains the hostility from when they first met in the series. Ollie gave the vibe that if it was not for deathstroke, he would not have worked with Waller at all.

But more recently he's quoting her mantras about the ends justifying the means with regards to torture.

It's interesting how much the show has walked certain early depictions back as it's gone on. Laurel started out as a fairly capable fighter, taking on bouncers three times her size and terrorist gunmen, but these days she's barely getting the better of dudes after some intensive training. Oliver was hostile towards Waller, and is now turning over mentally ill prisoners to be part of her explosive rigged hit squad. Thea refused to visit her mother in prison after the quake, but turned into daddy's little girl for Merlyn.

I know it's nitpicky, but little things like that really stick in the back of my head as I'm watching.

Stormson
02-20-2015, 09:37 AM
Can we talk about how terrible this week's episode was?

Aside from one joke, (and if you saw it, you know the joke), it was completely awful.

Kyle
02-20-2015, 10:03 AM
Personally, I like how Paul Blackman stepped-up to take one for the team by having the only Flashback Wig worse than Stephen Amell's.

Stormson
02-20-2015, 10:11 AM
Is that the person that plays Quentin Lance?

I really like him.

Kyle
02-20-2015, 10:17 AM
Oh, absolutely. First season, Lance was easily the biggest draw of the show for me. I was just distracted by how bad the hairpiece they had him wear this episode was.

Horsenhero
02-20-2015, 10:23 AM
Can we talk about how terrible this week's episode was?

Aside from one joke, (and if you saw it, you know the joke), it was completely awful.

Really? I liked it. Then again, reading back over this thread, I seem to be just about the only person here who actually likes this show. Most posts are of the "I watched the episode, so I could go hate on it" variety.

So...no, I won't talk about how awful this week's episode was. The rest of y'all can. It ain't like anyone can stop you.

But yeah...Detective Lance's hair was cringeworthy...or funny...or both.

Stormson
02-20-2015, 11:33 AM
I normally love it, but there was just so much cringe this week. Headlining was Felicity sneaking into the offices conveniently in time to talk to herself in front of Ollie who she has not even met. The fact they've now established Ollie actually returned to Starling during his 5 year absence is just.. ugh, it's a step I don't think the show should have taken.

mrdent12
02-20-2015, 11:34 AM
I think the episode was good, not the best of the season, but still entertaining. It was one of those episodes you had to suspend disbelief more than usual, but its a show based on a comic so that goes with the territory. While watching, it felt like a setup episode for the final episodes of the season.

Edit:

Didn't they suggest he was back in the city earlier without explicitly saying it?

Stormson
02-20-2015, 11:45 AM
They had implied he wasn't on the island for the full 5 years, prior to this season where it was outright shown he isn't.

Horsenhero
02-20-2015, 11:48 AM
It was a set up for the final episodes of the season. Intentional or not, Marc Guggenheim even mentioned in an interview that so far, every season of Arrow has had an episode about this point in the season where the flashbacks kind of take over the show to set the plate for the season's end run.

Can I mention though, that when Diggle was talking to his brother and his brother was giving him grief over leaving Lila, all I could think of was; "you're a footnote by the pilot episode and he gets the girl back... so, it sucks to be you".

Which is really childish when you consider they're all fictional characters, but...I can do childish on occasion.

Also, the picture of Ollie that Felicity was looking at? He didn't look cute. He looked like a serial killer. No wonder she has problems with her love life.

Stormson
02-20-2015, 11:54 AM
Yeah, Im thinking Ra's got the Omega virus and that's gonna be what he threatens Starling with.

Im curious who the other inmate in the Argus facility is.

Horsenhero
02-20-2015, 12:00 PM
Im curious who the other inmate in the Argus facility is.

Digger Harkness aka Captain Boomerang.

mrdent12
02-20-2015, 12:10 PM
Didn't the batman move have Ra's threaten Gotham with a virus? If it did hopefully Arrow puts a different spin on it if they go that route.

Stormson
02-20-2015, 12:17 PM
Digger Harkness aka Captain Boomerang.

Huh, I missed that. I knew he was apprehended, but didn't think he was sent to the island.

Horsenhero
02-20-2015, 01:05 PM
Yeah, I would've thought he would be Suicide Squad material, but, according to the shows' wiki page Slade Wilson and Digger Harkness are locked up on Lian Yu.

Speaking of the Squad, we're supposed to be getting a Suicide Squad episode toward the end of the season, which means we could get to see Diggle, Lyla, Bronze Tiger, Deadshot, Cupid and possibly named, but unused Squad members at A.R.G.U.S. headquarters, Ravan, Torque and Harley Quinn throw down with the League of Assassins...which could be kinda cool.

(Ravan and Torque both have brief visuals in "Unthinkable" and Harley Quinn's voice is heard through her cell door, offering to help Diggle & Lyla with their relationship problems.)

Stormson
02-20-2015, 02:21 PM
I highly doubt we'll ever see Harley, and that cameo was just an effective easter egg.

Horsenhero
02-20-2015, 04:16 PM
Your 99.9% likely to be correct, though I did find it amusing that they had the same actress who voices Harley for the animated shows do her voice through the door. It was a nice touch.

danelsan
02-21-2015, 10:16 AM
Headlining was Felicity sneaking into the offices conveniently in time to talk to herself in front of Ollie who she has not even met

I'm gonna be shallow here, but I have to forgive that scene a bit because Emily Bett Rickards' amazing legs are in it, which is a big plus ^_^

Stormson
02-22-2015, 04:46 PM
Your 99.9% likely to be correct, though I did find it amusing that they had the same actress who voices Harley for the animated shows do her voice through the door. It was a nice touch.

She actually voiced Harley for the video games, not the animated shows. Was Tara Strong, not Arleen Sorkin.

saint_matthew
02-26-2015, 03:29 AM
So I suppose it has to be asked now. Are you team Oliver or team Ray?

savijmuhdrox
02-26-2015, 06:18 AM
Hold up.. can we first nail down WHY Ollie had to go rescue Malcolm? I'm just not seeing it. To save Thea? Because he's her father? He drugged her into killing someone.. yeah, she's okay with never seeing him again.

That just.. blew. my. mind. It's like Olly is addicted to being thrown off mountains... and he needs another fix..

So yeah, right now.. Team Ray.. though I'm wondering if he's planning on shrinking, or if it will be side effect..

mrdent12
02-26-2015, 06:57 AM
They mentioned in the episode that he is drawn to risky behavior as a point of pride near the end when Diggle and him were talking. Also, I can believe Ollie wanting to save Theas soul. He's gone through a lot and was a big part in his parents deaths. As much as Thea hates Malcolm, she isn't as cold and detached as Ollie yet so getting Malcolm killed is one step closer to being like him. As far as TV show reasoning goes its not too bad. Flash or any other show for that matter falls apart pretty quick once you examine motives too much.

Stormson
02-26-2015, 02:47 PM
They actually came right out and said what the issue was.

Not only was it because of concerns about Thea, but it was also because Oliver cannot stand someone being better than him. His loss to Ras is driving him to do stupid things.

I got no idea where the hell they're going with things at this point though.

saint_matthew
02-26-2015, 02:53 PM
Hold up.. can we first nail down WHY Ollie had to go rescue Malcolm?

LOL, you are mistaken in thinking that there is an internally logical reason, it was simply a plot contrivance by writers who have a tendency to make Ollie act like a counter intuitive moron when the plot requires him to go in a strange direction.


So yeah, right now.. Team Ray.. though I'm wondering if he's planning on shrinking, or if it will be side effect..

Team Ray!

mrdent12
04-16-2015, 07:12 AM
This season of Arrow is getting difficult to overlook in terms of stuff done for the sake of plot. Wouldn't Ra's realize that Oliver doesn't want to lead the league and stop trying to force him after dedicating so many resources to it? Even if Oliver says yes after more coercion do you really want a leader you had to terrorize a city to force into the role just because of a prophecy said so? We all know the arrow in some form will make a return because its the shows name, but rebranding as Green Arrow isn't much of a change. To top it off, Lances only purpose at this point seems to be a convient way to move forward so Oliver joins the League.

Arthur Eld
04-16-2015, 07:48 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if Lance dies. Or has a sudden change of heart.

And whose to say Ra's didn't feel the same way as Oliver, originally?

I liked the scene with him and Thea. "I'm the Demon's Head."

Ra's being very technical. I read on Twitter that the actor who plays Ra's usually ad-libs calling Oliver 'boy' which I think is funny.

mrdent12
04-16-2015, 07:56 AM
I can see the Ra's thing a little especially if the Lazarus pit comes into play, but it still feels off and a little too forced plot wise no pun intended. As for Lance, he changes his mind so often that any thing can trigger a major change in his attitude. First the Arrow saves the city, so he's a huge hero, than the Arrow lies about Sara and clearly Arrow is on a killing spree extending to the mayor for the month even though she's not a criminal.

Arthur Eld
04-16-2015, 08:16 AM
Well, first he went after white collar folks, now maybe he's turned to politicians. You know, as every twenty-something liberal arts major would say "the real criminals".

That said, it is a little forced. But the show is not exactly a twisty turny place. Lots of people saw the Slade/Oliver/Shado thing coming from a mile away, even if Slade's sudden affection for Shado did seem to come out of nowhere.

Anyway, once Ra's does what he's going to do next ep with the LP, I'm 100% certain that Oliver will join up. At first, he considered becoming the next Demon's Head anyway.

savijmuhdrox
04-16-2015, 08:37 AM
The flashbacks are KILLING me.

I thought they were supposed to be there to introduce Katana to the show.. now they seem to just show up FOR NO REASON.

If she ever does show up.. I'm going to instantly hate her from these things.. and I like Rila Fukushima and her adorable weird shaped-head.

mrdent12
04-16-2015, 08:41 AM
Maybe the connection is Ra's having the virus? They already served as an introduction for Maseo, although he is little more than an errand boy at this point and could easily be replaced by a two different minor one off characters.

Horsenhero
04-16-2015, 11:05 AM
Nah, if you watch carefully, the problems and decisions in the flashbacks always mirror Oliver's current predicament in some way. I'm still waiting for Akio to die, changing Oliver's relationship with Maseo and Tatsu, as the grief stricken Maseo takes Akio off to be healed/resurrected in the Lazarus Pit (bubbling brook). Ra's will grant the request as long as Maseo joins the LoA. Akio will return (but evil), Tatsu will blame her husband, which will be the foundation for their odd, fractured relationship as it stands in the present day of the series.

Somehow, this will be drawn as a parallel to Oliver and Thea's situation. This is my guess.

My biggest problem with the entire episode was them trying to make Waller sympathetic. The Waller in the comics was an unsympathetic character and kind of a dirtbag, even if she might have had tragedy in her life that kind of justified it. So far Waller in the series has been an unsympathetic dirtbag, which is how it should be. With that in mind, I kind of resent her damsel in distress moment. I don't want this character to be sympathetic or likeable, because she's a cold-hearted, politically motivated, manipulative bitch, who represents more than anyone else in this world (Eiling, Shrieve or anyone) what happens when government power is unrestrained.

Kyle
04-17-2015, 06:04 AM
It is going to be interesting to see how many of these changes are intact by the end of the season. At this point, I'm actually concerned that 'Arrow' is going to be reset by whatever time travel shenanigans Barry gets up to in 'The Flash', so all the characters can return to their baseline level of misery, as opposed to the current escalating grimdark. That would be the absolute worst thing they could do, but I'm not sure how else the showrunners can get out of the corner they've painted themselves into without some catastrophically bad writing.

Stormson
04-17-2015, 06:42 AM
Nah, just have Ollie defeat Ra's in a public place and clearly show Ollie isn't the murderer, and have the Arrrow gang save the city -again- (which would make them 2-1 on city saving) and paint the picture that the city adores Ollie but the police still don't trust him. They haven't showed the civilians much this season except one moment where Ollie "returned" and no one seemed to be to mad about it.

I suspect Caity Lotz/Canary is coming back due to Lazarus Shenanigans.

Arthur Eld
04-17-2015, 11:25 AM
No, I think things are going to continue to get dark, or darker I should say.

Oliver will definitely be becoming Ra's appointed heir. That's for certain. Now whether or not he renounces that by, say, the last ten minutes of the the season finale, I don't know.

And while its likely Sara will be back via the Pits that might not happen on-screen on Arrow, and may wait until the spinoff show. I'm also unsure of, but hopeful, that Nyssa might possibly become a series regular for Season 4. I know she'll pop up again at least once more this season. Same with Roy

mrdent12
04-17-2015, 11:31 AM
I think it will get darker until the final episode where it will get lighter since the title of the last episode is I am Oliver Queen or something of that sort. Once he assumes the title of Ras possibly killing the current one, he might abdicate and pass it to Nyssa. At the end, we might even see him become Green Arrow since Arrow is a burned name.

Arthur Eld
04-17-2015, 11:47 AM
Its 'My Name is Oliver Queen,' which is a nice bit cause it's the opening line of the intro. Although 'Something else.' would be nice to.

He might kill Ra's but I dunno. Oliver's 0-2 on season long Big Bads. And it would be hard for me to buy anything but a sort of assisted suicide scenario-given how Ra's has stomped everybody in his path. That century or so of combat training gives him a bit of an edge.

Horsenhero
04-17-2015, 11:51 AM
The most recent spotting of what might be going on with the spin-off had a reporter claiming to have seen Caity Lotz in an all white costume, which would hint at a run as the White Canary, which in turn, would set her up as a mirror image villain to Laurel.

As for the rest of the season. I have a feeling Oliver will replace Ra's only to do a face turn back to the Green Arrow or something by season's end. However, regardless of what happens to Oliver, something has got to happen with Detective Lance given that he's too close to everything now to back off. Sure, Roy faking his death (conveniently timed with the end of Colton Haines' contract) publicly exonerates Ollie, but since Lance has already said he doesn't believe Roy was the Arrow anyway, that doesn't end Oliver's issue with him.

I thought it was funny that a 10 second bit with Cisco hinted at where the spin-off is going to be set. My suspicion is Ray is moving to Opal City come spin-off time, to investigate why metahumans are suddenly appearing (at least Deathbolt) outside of the particle accelerator's area of influence.

Speaking of the Atom, hurray for both shows featuring Atom foes this week. Bug-Eyed Bandit on Flash and Deathbolt (a golden age Atom foe via an All-Star Squadron tale) on Arrow...and hurray for Atom being in both episodes.

Plus, I laughed when Ray brought up the one thing mentioned so many times by viewers...how do the people in the "Ring" get fed and go to the bathroom? they didn't answer the question, but at least someone mentioned it on the show.

mrdent12
04-17-2015, 11:51 AM
Even with all that experience if Oliver gets some help he might be able to defeat Ras. The Flash might swoop in to give an assist since we know Oliver helps the Flash.

Arthur Eld
04-17-2015, 11:54 AM
Speaking of Deathbolt, it was nice to see Doug Jones just as himself and not in some fantastical get-up and a bunch of makeup.

I mean, his turns as guys like Abe Sapien or the Pale Man are great but it was nice to just see him. And he's plenty creepy as is really, all tall and gangly and angular.

Getting the Flash to just run in and whup on Ra's would be incredibly unsatisfying. And I say that as a guy that is very easily satisfied.

mrdent12
04-17-2015, 12:10 PM
Ray going to Opal city would leave an opening for Oliver to become more humanitarian, get a good rep in the city, and be more Green Arrow like with maybe some help from the leagues coffers.As for Barry beating up Ras, for me it is as satisfying as Oliver saving Merlyn or any other for convient events that make little sense in the series.

Kyle
04-30-2015, 02:21 PM
The League of Assassins baffles me almost as much as Amanda Waller on this show. The initiation to become Ra's al Ghul is to murder an entire population centre? Why? It's just so over the top that there's no way I can suspend my belief enough to fathom that Oliver might actually do that.

Also, Nyssa was running with a deadly bio-weapon hidden in the hilt of her sword? Maybe that vial is made of some ridiculous durable material, but c'mon.

This show is ridiculous.

mrdent12
04-30-2015, 02:26 PM
My theory is they want to copy batman without calling it that. The league killing a whole city where a star pupil used to live sounds very familiar. Also, if Nysa wanted to keep the disease out of league hands why not burn it? At this point, I have suspended all disbelief for the show and view it as the live action comic it is.

Horsenhero
04-30-2015, 02:27 PM
Yes. So much less realistic than the Flash. I completely get why people get so stoked about the comicbook way the Flash ignores reality, but call Arrow on the same sort of thing every time. Just imagine how bad it would be if this sort of double standard didn't exist.

Arthur Eld
04-30-2015, 02:29 PM
Well, tonally they're two very different kinds of shows.

That said, I've enjoyed this season as much, if not more as the two previous ones.

Really hoping Nyssa becomes a regular character for Season 4, but I doubt it. Still, a guy can dream.

Horsenhero
04-30-2015, 02:39 PM
Tonality doesn't change the fact they're both comicbook shows. Neither has to cleave any more closely to a realistic plot than the other. Grim doesn't mean real and all the pouting over one show having less realism, while that same lack of realism is cheered on the sister show, is simply imbecilic.

Comic book plots are going to have comic book twists. You may as well bitch about how they never have to wear space suits in Star Wars or the fact that 800 guys can shoot machine guns at James Bond and miss. You either accept the premise or you don't, but calling out Arrow for a very comic book type reveal, while clapping for the same type of thing on the Flash is stupid.

mrdent12
04-30-2015, 02:44 PM
To be fair, it is easier to apply a live action comic vs realistic standards in a show where someone runs as fast as the Flash. When it started Arrow didn't come across as comic like and the realistic standard seems to have unfairly stuck.

Arthur Eld
04-30-2015, 02:45 PM
Well, I think its an internal consistency issue.

We're told the reason Ra's wanted to kill Malcolm is because he betrayed the League's ideals by quake-bombing Starling City. So unleashing a bio-weapon on the very same city rubs some people the wrong way.

But it might just be a test, or it might be different-in Ra's eyes-because this is on his orders as part of Al Sah-Him's path to becoming Ra's Al Ghul.

Which makes a certain amount of sense. I imagine Ra's being the kind of guy that if you kill someone he didn't order you to, he'd be pissed. Even if he was planning on ordering you to kill that same guy later.

Like if Maseo had said "I wanna marry Nyssa" while she was still considered loyal to him, I imagine Ra's answer would have been a flat no. But once Nyssa betrayed him, as he put it-what she wants doesn't matter to him anymore.

Kyle
04-30-2015, 03:13 PM
Yes. So much less realistic than the Flash. I completely get why people get so stoked about the comicbook way the Flash ignores reality, but call Arrow on the same sort of thing every time. Just imagine how bad it would be if this sort of double standard didn't exist.

It's not the lack of realism which bothers me, it's the lack of reasonable motivation. With 'The Flash', all the characters have fairly clear and consistent motivations, and their actions stem from those motivations in a way that generally makes sense. The characters in 'Arrow' are all over the board.

I've never seen anyone complaining about the comicbooky aspects of 'Arrow'. Ray Palmer making a battle-suit powered by dwarf star material, or WWII era Japanese super-solider formulas, etc. The problem with the show isn't that they exist in a superhero universe -- hell, I wish they'd commit to that more -- the problems are a result of plot contrivances and inconsistent characterization.

Also, criticism isn't a bad thing. A person can criticise something for it's flaws and still enjoy the overall product.

mrdent12
04-30-2015, 03:28 PM
The Flash has the advantage though in that Barry and Wells are driving it for the most part with the other characters playing largely support roles. It is also still in the first season where eveything is being developed. In Arrow, the support characters play a larger role and are more developed. When characters start getting a history keeping it consistent and surprising gets more difficult.

Kyle
04-30-2015, 03:48 PM
The Flash has the advantage though in that Barry and Wells are driving it for the most part with the other characters playing largely support roles. It is also still in the first season where eveything is being developed. In Arrow, the support characters play a larger role and are more developed. When characters start getting a history keeping it consistent and surprising gets more difficult.

Sure, but the first season of 'Arrow' is easily the worst so far. 'The Flash' benefits from the showrunners having learned from the first two seasons of 'Arrow', but 'The Flash' would need to go completely off the rails to even compare.

Consider the episodes where the Huntress is introduced. And yeah, I'm picking the episodes that stand-out in my mind as being the worst, but it's because they were so bad that I remember details. Laurel and Helena were both written as completely irrational, with their personalities changing over the course of a single scene, and even then Oliver was moralising at Helena about not killing, while he himself murdered at least one dude that I can think of.

I honestly think 'Arrow' could be just as good as 'The Flash', but some aspects of the show are just baffling.

Stormson
05-01-2015, 11:16 AM
The part about destroying starling is to basically erase Oliver from the planet, by taking away what Oliver cared about the most. This isn't about destroying Star City, it's about destroying Oliver Queen, so Al-sa-him can take his place.

My only complaint is that this isn't batman, so why are they rehashing batman plots?

savijmuhdrox
05-01-2015, 11:19 AM
I'm waiting for the flashbacks to start having flashbacks..

mrdent12
05-01-2015, 11:22 AM
Destroying Starling City will probably be the catalyst to snap Oliver out of the brain washing and Starling City in grave peril seems to be the goto thing for Arrow finales. It just so happens Ras is the bad guy this season. Being a resident of the city would suck.

Arthur Eld
05-01-2015, 11:24 AM
The part about destroying starling is to basically erase Oliver from the planet, by taking away what Oliver cared about the most. This isn't about destroying Star City, it's about destroying Oliver Queen, so Al-sa-him can take his place.

My only complaint is that this isn't batman, so why are they rehashing batman plots?

Because Batman has been around for more than three quarters of a century, so its kinda hard to find urban vigilante plots that he hasn't covered at some point.

And because Green Arrow was at first very much a copy of Batman-its only the progressive, liberal, politics side that really separated him from Batman and that's something the show hasn't really explored (and I doubt it will).

Seriously, at first he had an Arrow-Car, Arrow-Plane. The show has at least winkingly called Oliver's lair The Arrow Cave. His first arch-foe, Bull's Eye was a clown much like The Joker. They're very similar characters.

The biggest difference Oliver has from Batman is that he's willing to kill in certain circumstances, which makes him more realistic. And honestly, if I had to choose between say, going to prison for the rest of my life like Brick, or getting three arrows in the chest and dying, I'd take the arrows.

Stormson
05-01-2015, 12:18 PM
Except they're not even trying to do something different. Ras is a batman villain, they're using the heir plot, and Nyssa as of last episode may as well be Talia. Im half expecting the marriage to go through and next season be some weird love quadrangle with Felicity, Ollie, Nyssa, and Laurel.

They could have easily used some of the pre-existing ties to Argus to have created a new Arrow specific big bad, or bring in someone less iconic villain wise, (IE, Deathstroke kinda rolls around the DCU, Ras does not) but they chose to use a Batman villain and a Batman plot.

Kyle
05-01-2015, 05:46 PM
The part about destroying starling is to basically erase Oliver from the planet, by taking away what Oliver cared about the most. This isn't about destroying Star City, it's about destroying Oliver Queen, so Al-sa-him can take his place.

I totally get that. My objection is that killing several hundred thousand people is so cartoonishly over the top that there's no way I can believe Oliver would go along with it, despite his already impressive body count. If becoming Ra's necessitated that he kill Dig, Laurel, Felicity and Thea, given the trajectory of the show, I could believe that would be something a brain-washed Oliver would try, and maybe succeed with one or two to give him something new to angst about next season. There's no way he could come back from killing the whole city though.

And yeah, I get that it's to tie into the plot -- such as it is -- from the flashbacks and apparently the entire city needs to be at risk every season finale, but it's just a bridge too far.

mrdent12
05-01-2015, 05:54 PM
The Flash has its comic science, time travel, and meta humans. Arrow has out there comic plots/character motives and Starling City being always on the brink of destruction at the end of each season. Buying into one makes it easy for me to but in the other.

saint_matthew
05-07-2015, 03:07 AM
That awkward moment while watching the Arrow when you realize you'd be more enthused about watching it if it were The Atom.

mrdent12
05-07-2015, 06:53 AM
Iron...I mean Atom...doesnt seem very intersting to me and was one of those easy way out type things Arrow loves to do. Overall, as a setup episode it wasn't too bad, but it felt incomplete on its own. The cliff hanger at the end was especially strange given there is no way what is strongly implied to happen will happen because of the previews. Laurel getting more competant as a fighter, but still having issues was a nice touch though.

Horsenhero
05-07-2015, 08:27 AM
And I finally figured out where I've seen this "Ra's wipes out city via disease" plotline before...it is..of course... a Batman story called "Contagion". Details have been changed to protect the guilty (and neither Bane, nor Azrael, big players in the original storyline exist in the Arrow-verse that we know of), but it isn't Ra's first attempt to destroy Gotham...err...Starling City...via plague.

I like the set up for Thea to become "Speedy" as a costumed vigilante. I'll miss Colton Haynes though. Ah, contract negotiations...thou art a cruel mistress.

Stormson
05-07-2015, 09:17 AM
I highly suspect he will be back, at some point.

Arthur Eld
05-07-2015, 09:48 AM
Yeah, it seemed to me less like he was forced out and more like his contract was up and he chose not to renew. And everybody involved knew about it.

He's already got a movie coming up, anyway.

I liked this episode, and my fingers are still crossed that Katrina Law will somehow be a regular next season. If they could do it for Barrowman (who my friend who I watch the show with remarked on being surprisingly likeable for a villain, which made me laugh considering how much internet hate the writers get for keeping him around), why not her?

mrdent12
05-07-2015, 10:07 AM
Malcom is a classic villain, but good guy in his own twisted way. Ordinarily, killing 500+ people would make him unlikable, but Barrowman plays him so well.

Arthur Eld
05-07-2015, 10:15 AM
I've still never seen him in anything else (my experience with Doctor Who has not yet extended to the episodes he's in, and I've never watched Torchwood), except for his very brief appearance in Zero Dark Thirty.

He is likeable, though.

Stormson
05-07-2015, 10:17 AM
Katrina Law is Nyssa, right? I am heavily worried that they are going to keep her around, and play the "unwanted marriage" angle into the ground, because this is ultimately a CW show, and that fits the network.

Also, what movie does Colton have coming up? I know I'd read there was interest, but I just, no offense to the actor, don't see him becoming some form of break out star. I expect he'll be back for several cameos at some point. Possibly picked up by Waller for the Squad.

mrdent12
05-07-2015, 10:18 AM
I gave up on Torchwood after the second half of season two because it didn't appeal to me, but the big reason I kept watching was Barrowman.

Arthur Eld
05-07-2015, 10:28 AM
Katrina Law is Nyssa, right? I am heavily worried that they are going to keep her around, and play the "unwanted marriage" angle into the ground, because this is ultimately a CW show, and that fits the network.

Also, what movie does Colton have coming up? I know I'd read there was interest, but I just, no offense to the actor, don't see him becoming some form of break out star. I expect he'll be back for several cameos at some point. Possibly picked up by Waller for the Squad.

Katrina Law is Nyssa, yes. I doubt the marriage will be much of a deal, but I would like to keep seeing her. I really like her interactions with Laurel because they avoided any blatant ship teasing.

Colton is gonna be in the Rock's new movie, San Andreas, which comes out soon. He was a main character on Teen Wolf, which he then left for Arrow. I doubt he'll be hurting for work anytime soon. I can't imagine why Roy would join the Suicide Squad.

Horsenhero
05-07-2015, 10:41 AM
Katrina Law is Nyssa, right? I am heavily worried that they are going to keep her around, and play the "unwanted marriage" angle into the ground, because this is ultimately a CW show, and that fits the network.

Also, what movie does Colton have coming up? I know I'd read there was interest, but I just, no offense to the actor, don't see him becoming some form of break out star. I expect he'll be back for several cameos at some point. Possibly picked up by Waller for the Squad.

Katrina Law does indeed play Nyssa. Personally I'd love it if they kept her around. She's a decent actress and she handles the physical demands of the role pretty well. Even if they have stunt players for alot of the fighting (it isn't too difficult to spot when Katie Cassidy steps aside for her fight double), the actors have to do enough physical scenes that it really isn't any wonder why the same actors appear in so many of these types of shows.

Secondly, why does Colton Haynes have to be a break out star? Break out stars often are flashes in the pan. (See: Amanda Bynes, Frankie Muniz) He's just as well off crafting a career as a good journeyman actor, ala, Jeremy Piven, Jerry Orbach, Shemar Moore, Thomas Gibson, Paget Brewster, Judy Greer, Teri Polo, Clark Gregg, Jonny Lee Miller or the like. Fine actors, never lacking for work, but not nearly as subject to being "in fashion".

This is why it's so smart of Stephen Amell to be playing Casey Jones in the next TMNT movie. He could survive quite comfortably on what he makes playing Oliver, but why leave it at that? Cultivate a nice portfolio of work that establishes you as an actor with work ethic. You may not end up a marquee player, but you'll never lack for work.

One of my favorite quotes from a contemporary actor is from an interview with Aisha Tyler. Some "Entertainement Reporter" asked her why she does so many projects (television, film, stage, voice) and her answer was perfect:

"I like getting paid."

savijmuhdrox
05-12-2015, 05:53 AM
a little late to the party I know...

but.. KATANA!!!

this show intro should now be the Arrow logo.. and then have it sliced in half with an awesome Katana logo..

Horsenhero
05-15-2015, 12:10 AM
So, I read a review of the Arrow season finale that brought up something important that I'd completely ignored... Malcolm Merlyn wins. He kills 500+ people with his attack on the glades, causes Sara's death, torments Moira and Thea and plays everyone against each other only to be made the new Ra's Al Ghul at the end of season 3. He not only escapes any sort of punishment for his crimes, he's rewarded for them.

Oliver didn't win. Felicity didn't win. Neither did Diggle, Laurel, Thea or Nyssa. Sure, they all survived, but Malcolm won. Apparently the star of the show isn't the Arrow we thought.

mrdent12
05-15-2015, 12:20 AM
Malcolm should have lost, but if this last inconsistent season is any indication he is semi reformed. The first three seasons still had Oliver the star because it started with him being a murderous lone wolf who killed "bad" people who were in his dads notebook. It was a roller coaster ride, but in the finale he seems like he is a fairly hopeful and happy sort finally. Going forward, as long as they don't back slide, it should be a less dark show.

Kyle
05-15-2015, 12:40 AM
I am curious to see how it shakes out. Is the show going to get a lighter tone, or is something terrible going to happen to Felicity in the first episode of season 4, so we're right back where we started?

Malcolm's plot immunity is certainly frustrating. Oliver was willing to kill Ra's to stop him from pursuing the prophecy, but not only let Malcolm walk after everything -- from setting up Robert Queen to die, to the earthquake machine, killing Tommy, killing Sara via a drugged Thea and using Thea as a shield -- but set him up to be more powerful and dangerous going forward.

Also, doesn't Malcolm now have to kill a whole city -- presumably Starling -- since he's the new Ra's? Or is the League suddenly willing to let that tradition slide?

mrdent12
05-15-2015, 01:22 AM
I think the whole killing a city thing can be changed. Honestly at this point Oliver is near unstoppable except by much greater foes who can squash him in a very boring fashion like darksied or Superman. Having the power of plot, the only satisfying counter is another with plot power immunity.

saint_matthew
08-07-2015, 07:03 PM
Well 60 days left until the next season starts, so I thought I'd link to this fun video of Green Arrow versus Hawkeye live action fight. Who do you think would win? I mean it's a pretty safe bet who wins considering there is no tv show called Hawkeye.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD9h09ER-y4&feature=player_embedded

danelsan
08-07-2015, 08:20 PM
Well, usually I would have said they are quite evenly matched...but I have yet to see Green arrow being easily and repeatedly defeated by dumb Russian thugs who say "bro" all the time, so currently I have to side with GA on this XD

saint_matthew
08-07-2015, 08:38 PM
Well, usually I would have said they are quite evenly matched...but I have yet to see Green arrow being easily and repeatedly defeated by dumb Russian thugs who say "bro" all the time, so currently I have to side with GA on this XD

HA! It's funny because that was one of my major complaints with the Hawkeye comic book. Past Hawkeye took down the entire Thunderbolts team single handedly, current Hawkeye can't even take down Russians wannabe mobsters wearing track suits that say bro.

Mr Mole
10-07-2015, 10:47 PM
Just watched the first episode of the new season... And I have to say I'm intrigued.

This show got off to a rocky start and there've been some major hiccups... But we've now been officially introduced to the Green Arrow. :o

mrdent12
10-07-2015, 10:52 PM
It certainly feels like a different show. Plus, they got to the city on the brink of destruction much quicker this season. Its nice how Arrow and Flash are recognizing the glaring things everyone kept pointing out and are using it as part of the plot. Hopefully It stays Green Arrow and doesn't go back into batman with a bow and arrow.

savijmuhdrox
10-08-2015, 06:38 AM
Wait.

What happened to Katana?

please tell me she'll be back.. cuz if I.. err.. We.. waited all fricking season so she could show up, stab her husband and then leave; I'll be sorely disappointed. I need my Rila Fukushima fix and I don't watch Game of Thrones!!! and seriously, how many times can one actually watch The Wolverine? (like.. 7.. 8 times, right?)

The actual episode was just so so (IMHO). I found myself actually liking ducklips.. I mean Thea.. in costume.. (though I don't care for the implied violent streak, just let her be for now).

Diggle's helmet was.. well.. it was just as ridiculous as it looked online.. [face palm].. oh, diggle..

The introduction of Neal McDonough was good; even if his character is basically the same guy he plays in every TV show anyway; just give him a different hat.

Minor complaints all.. it won't kill the show for me; but I do hope this is like The Flash felt as well.. a little necessary slowness for the season premiere; and then let the good times roll.

Mr Mole
10-08-2015, 07:14 AM
Plus, they got to the city on the brink of destruction much quicker this season.
I'm not entirely sure why, but reading that line made me LOL.


and seriously, how many times can one actually watch The Wolverine? (like.. 7.. 8 times, right?)
Your pain threshold must be much higher than mine. I managed sitting through it once. I could do it again if I had to, but after that I'd need a couple years to recover fully.


The introduction of Neal McDonough was good; even if his character is basically the same guy he plays in every TV show anyway; just give him a different hat.
Of the handful of TV and movie roles I've seen him in, I only remember one other time he played a largely identical character on TV (Street Fighter: The Legend of Chun-Li, which is a good one to not watch... ever.). I need to read his IMDB page... Yeah, lots and lots of one-shot appearances and a few shows I never watched, so that's probably it.


Minor complaints all.. it won't kill the show for me; but I do hope this is like The Flash felt as well.. a little necessary slowness for the season premiere; and then let the good times roll.
Yeah, that's pretty much my take on it.

mrdent12
10-08-2015, 08:40 AM
Neal is a very promising villain as Damien Darkh. It's interesting how the show has effectively gone from bow and arrow batman to a more comic type show. I love how they acknowledged on the show no one wants to live in the city anymore. After the first two city threatening events one would think the city would be empty. After the third anyone left would have given up. Now a fourth comes and people are still hanging around.

savijmuhdrox
10-08-2015, 09:34 AM
Of the handful of TV and movie roles I've seen him in, I only remember one other time he played a largely identical character on TV (Street Fighter: The Legend of Chun-Li, which is a good one to not watch... ever.). I need to read his IMDB page... Yeah, lots and lots of one-shot appearances and a few shows I never watched, so that's probably it.


He's playing the villain on Public Morals right now (well, one of the villains)

and I swear.. he's the same guy.. just all smiles and nuance and seeming non-threat.. and then bam.. he's strangling the crap out of ya; or doing whatever Damien does..

it's like if we see him on a show.. we know someone's about to get offed...

Horsenhero
10-08-2015, 10:30 AM
Unless he's playin' Dum Dum Duggan on Agent Carter...'cause then he's all about beer, shotguns and killin' the enemies of the US. Pretty much in that order.

And not to take an opposite stance just for the heck of it, but I really hope Rila Fukushima doesn't show up again any time soon. She's just...weird looking and as bad as Laurel's fight choreography was, Katana's was worse.

On the whole, I liked this season premier better than I liked the Flash. It felt a bit more like a new chapter in a story, rather than an episode of wrapping up loose ends (Quick! Write out Robbie Amell, since he's going to be in the new X-Files reboot and he's got a movie coming out next year!) with a half-assed thing thrown in so Barry could have a fight ...and get the band back together.

Granted, there was fighting...and getting the band back together...but it still felt more like the beginning of something than a quick clean-up.

Who knows? Maybe with Damien having more overt mystic powers we'll get some guest appearances by some more overtly mystic heroes.

Besides Constantine.

Which I like that they're doing...but c'mon...who wouldn't rather see Zatanna?

digitalangel
10-08-2015, 11:50 AM
Neal is a very promising villain as Damien Darkh. It's interesting how the show has effectively gone from bow and arrow batman to a more comic type show. I love how they acknowledged on the show no one wants to live in the city anymore. After the first two city threatening events one would think the city would be empty. After the third anyone left would have given up. Now a fourth comes and people are still hanging around.

I worked in New Orleans for a couple years. There were people who had over their lifetime lost 5-6-7 houses to hurricanes, and still wouldn't even think about living anywhere else.

You could say the same about other areas that are prone to hurricanes, flooding, yearly wild fires, ...

savijmuhdrox
10-08-2015, 01:02 PM
Unless he's playin' Dum Dum Duggan on Agent Carter...'cause then he's all about beer, shotguns and killin' the enemies of the US. Pretty much in that order.

ooh. good stick. forgot he was in that.



And not to take an opposite stance just for the heck of it, but I really hope Rila Fukushima doesn't show up again any time soon. She's just...weird looking and as bad as Laurel's fight choreography was, Katana's was worse.

you say weird looking.. but I'm enamored with her oddly shaped head. though I didn't notice anything wrong with her fighting.. probably because she only did it like twice..

danelsan
10-08-2015, 08:37 PM
While I like The Flash better as a show, I think this first episode of the season was stronger than Flash's. It does many of the same things, but a bit better woven into starting a new story arc.

While it does hook back into earlier story (with the Hive thing, for instance) it is also already introducing the villain of a new arc and an entirely new element to the series in the form of powers of mystical origins (though technically the Vixen cartoon established their existence in this DC "TVverse" before Arrow, it is still a new dimension in the show itself), which is comparable to the adoption of psychic powers with Grodd back in Flash in terms of letting it be the absurd kitchen-sink style of setting that the comics present.

Also glad to see him finally adopt the Green Arrow name.

And, well, I admit it: at least a small part of why I liked this one better than the Flash one is because I missed Emily Rickards' amazing legs XD

Kyle
10-08-2015, 09:57 PM
Also glad to see him finally adopt the Green Arrow name.

That line delivery, though...so overwrought. Yeah, I guess it's a big moment for fans of the comics that Ollie finally embrace the Green Arrow name, but watching that, I couldn't help but be reminded of the How It Should Have Ended for 'Star Trek: Into Darkness' (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N15J4ibej8). When Ollie declares that he's Green Arrow, Stephen Amell delivers the line with such conviction and portent, but for anyone watching his broadcast, it's basically just two words mashed together. Also -- ignoring for the moment the fact that anyone watching the broadcast who had also seen video of the Arrow should be able to tell they're the same person -- the Arrow also wore green, so it's not like he's really setting himself apart.

Anyways! Nitpicking aside, I liked the episode. There's a lot of really cool moments.

Like when Dig first drops down into the back of the truck. David Ramsey is already a big dude, but between the body armour, the helmet, and the low camera angle, he looked absolutely massive. Seeing Dig in action like that was cool enough that I didn't question how he got on the roof of the trailer until after the episode was over. Though, it was difficult to see, but it does look like his helmet might not actually cover the back of his head, and that seems bafflingly silly.

Damien Darhk seems like he's has a lot of potential as a villain. He's certainly menacing enough. The reveal that Oliver has encountered magic before, but is only just now bringing it up seems very convenient -- serriously, you would think that after the third time something Ollie encountered while presumed dead showed up to menace Team Arrow, Dig would have sat him down and have him go over everything that happened while he was away so they'd be aware of what they could expect to show up going forward -- but at least it's unique from everything we've seen before. And, if nothing else, at least they only have one more season before they run out the clock on the flashbacks.

Speaking of the flashbacks: back to the island, eh? I was sure this would be the season where we see Oliver in Russia, mixing it up with the Bratva. That could still happen of course, but going back to the Lian Yu now means that at some point he gets off, goes to Russia, and then ends up on the island at least one more time before finally returning to Starling.

Arthur Eld
10-09-2015, 08:47 AM
Unless KGBeast is on the island too (I know he's not really KGBeast in this verse but I don't recall his actual name and I always liked KGBeast), though that seems unlikely.

I think, when the first of the Mirakuro soldiers appeared (also-not-Grundy) or about that time, Oliver vaguely mentions seeing impossible things-I forget the exact wording but it was a vague enough thing to cover magic as well.

When they bring in Constantine, I wouldn't be surprised if he and Oliver have met in the flashbacks.

And I don't know why-I don't think this was ever stated or implied-but I kinda got the impression that Oliver chose to return to the island, for whatever reason, before the show started.

mrdent12
10-09-2015, 08:53 AM
Oliver has the Superman comic distortion field power. When combined with glasses, a hood, a simple mask, or other such item everyone magicly gets stupid about his identity. Realistically, a facial scan of the video could probably identify Ollie as the green arrow on seconds. Ever since the show embraced its comic roots it gets the comic pass like the flash from me though.

Kyle
10-09-2015, 09:47 AM
Oh, something else that bothered me! Felicity asked why Oliver had his dragon tattoo removed -- the one Slade had put on him as punishment for Shado's death -- and Ollie claimed he didn't need it anymore. What happened in season 3 that he'd suddenly feel absolved of his guilt? Not that he was at all responsible, but I can't remember any real turning point in season 3 where he'd stop beating himself up about it.

Arthur Eld
10-09-2015, 11:07 AM
Presumably that occurred largely off-screen as part of a general unburdening of Ollie's emotional problems.

That's also probably why he made the distinction in the flashforward at the end that so and so's death wasn't his fault, though he was responsible for dealing with whoever's fault it was.

I dont know anything about the guy playing Anarky, but I really like the actor for Mr. Terrific so I'm looking forward to when they bring him in.

mrdent12
10-09-2015, 11:21 AM
Alot of his baggage was handled between seasons. After 3 seasons of working through emotional angst and guilt the producers seen to want to shy away from that. Being on cw, there has to be some emotional angst, but it probably won't be nearly as much as before.

Horsenhero
10-14-2015, 07:32 PM
I liked tonight's episode. It was a good "in universe" origin for Anarky. Thea's mental issues and Laurel's plan (such as it is) to handle them dovetail nicely into the upcoming LoT show. I do have to wonder how long Captain Lance will be able to maintain his moral outrage, considering he's working for the badguy.

My only gripe is the departure of Jeri Ryan after a single episode. Rats.

I give it a solid "B" grade.

mrdent12
10-15-2015, 06:40 AM
It was nice seeing Oliver faced with so much adversity yet still be the optimistic one. His line about having money made me smile. My one quip is that he has lost alot of fighting skill. He took on the head of the league last season yet a mob enforcer gets the upper hand on him? Even for a show like this that stands out as a major inconsistency.

saint_matthew
10-15-2015, 07:00 AM
My one quip is that he has lost alot of fighting skill. He took on the head of the league last season yet a mob enforcer gets the upper hand on him? Even for a show like this that stands out as a major inconsistency.

That's not inconsistency, so much as a result of the 6 months in which Ollie hasn't been playing vigilante. He's been living the easy life for 6 months, he's got a little rusty at his skills. Kind of like Batman after Knightfall: He gets his spine magically unbroken & he's in tip top physical condition, but the edge is gone, his fighting skills have returned to being academic, not instinctual.

freeclint
10-15-2015, 07:20 AM
Favorite moment in episode two, during the big melee with the Ghosts, GA shoots his grapple arrow and Canary catches it mid jump and slides to the ground.

Made my day.

Kyle
10-15-2015, 06:11 PM
It was nice seeing Oliver faced with so much adversity yet still be the optimistic one.

Agreed. Other than his scrap with Thea, having Ollie be the foundation of the team as opposed to the guy scowling and barking orders was a nice change of pace. Hopefully this version of the character sticks around for a while.


Favorite moment in episode two, during the big melee with the Ghosts, GA shoots his grapple arrow and Canary catches it mid jump and slides to the ground.

Made my day.

I really enjoyed the whole opening sequence of Team Arrow working together really well. Oliver may have had some plot induced skill loss, but the whole team wrecking shop on a bunch of ghosts was pretty great. There's even a moment where Ollie's watching everyone else holding their own and working together, and he smiles. That's the kind of Green Arrow I'm interested in watching.


It was a good "in universe" origin for Anarky.
It didn't occur to me that's supposed to be Anarky. What's his M.O. going to be? Anarky seems to have a different motivation every time he appears in a new medium. The only approach I can see them using for the character -- if he's going to be sticking around -- would be to have him act similar to Heath Ledger's Joker from 'The Dark Knight'. But maybe I'm just too concerned that this show can't get away from mimicking Nolan's Batman films, to it's detriment.

Also, did I understand Felicity right when she implied that Machin cut off his finger pads, then cut those up and sutured them back on to his fingers in some sort of messed up pattern? Why? Why would he do that? He could just burn off his fingerprints with acid, or sand them off. Further, his "new" fingerprints, once they're in the system, are going to be incredibly easy to match up. Not to mention DNA evidence, and basic facial recognition software.... It seems so dumb and pointless, and Team Arrow breezed past it like it was a totally legitimate thing a criminal would do.

Did anyone recognize the flowers they were harvesting on Flashback Island, in the GREEN ARROW: YEAR ONE homage? Opium poppies are usually pink, purple or red, but those looked pretty blue. Maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't think blue flowers have been a previous plot point for anything related to Lian Yu. Of course, there's the blue flowers from 'Batman Begins'.

Anyways! I really liked this episode. The stinger at the end of the last episode makes me think the tone won't last through to the end of the season, but I'm happy to ride it out as long as they keep it up.

Oh! I also found it hilariously bizarre that they buried Sara in her crime-fighting bustier. Yeah, it was a secret funeral in the middle of the night after keeping her in the freezer for an extended length of time, so things could have potentially been more dignified, but still, Laurel might have wanted to lay her sister to rest in something other than the corset she was murdered in. Just maybe?

Arthur Eld
10-15-2015, 06:41 PM
Well someone on the writing staff liked Wiseguy.

Stormson
10-16-2015, 06:40 AM
I was hoping the coffin would be empty. :( I don't think Im gonna care for this whole "brought back completely from the dead" thing.

Psistrike
10-16-2015, 11:30 AM
I was hoping the coffin would be empty. :( I don't think Im gonna care for this whole "brought back completely from the dead" thing.
They are setting it up so she can be White Canary on Legends of Tomorrow.

Arthur Eld
10-16-2015, 04:56 PM
You know I thought Sara being in that outfit was strange too (I was also expecting the coffin to be empty because that's just such a used device, I'm glad they didn't do that), but really the only person on Team Arrow who would have made a good candidate for dressing the body was Diggle, and even then, its a long shot.

I mean, dressing a corpse isn't usually done by family members anymore, from what I understand. So Laurel probably wouldn't do it. Oliver-well this is a woman he used to sleep with, undressing and then re-dressing her violently murdered dead body is a big ask. So those are the two biggest candidates right out.

Psistrike
10-21-2015, 05:35 PM
First hint of Curtis Holt becoming Mister Terrific shown tonight, with the T-Spheres being shown.

Horsenhero
10-21-2015, 07:30 PM
Yeah, this episode was pretty tightly written. I liked Nyssa's revenge on Malcolm, since it conveniently disables the evil waters of mulligan. I liked the mention of the sage on the mountain (Sensei from the comics maybe?). I enjoyed the teaser of Mr. Terrific and I thought Sarah's resurrection was handled pretty well. I even had a chuckle at Felicity holding her own against Double Down.

And at the end? A message from "beyond the grave" (because beyond the shrinkage just doesn't quite work...for a multitude of reasons) from Ray Palmer, I'm guessing.

So far, I've been digging this season of Arrow.

Mr Mole
10-21-2015, 08:21 PM
Hmmm... Why did that "ghost" who had Diggle on his back and in his sights at the beginning of the episode not take the shot? Instead, he turned tail and ran away. Did I miss something?

Malcolm's line to Thea... "a man... some people call him a 'sage'" screamed "Victor Sage/The Question" to me. It was a bit of a stretch that he'd be living at the top of the mountain, but stranger things have happened, right? Majorly disappointed when Malcolm said he'd made him up. :(

I'm liking Barrowman's portrayal of Malcolm Merlin better and better. His first scene in season one seemed very off to me. Not everything he does is great, but there are some really shiny moments and his overall performance is much improved.

Man, I just really want to see The Question in action now... or at least see Jeffrey Combs make an appearance here or on The Flash... :(

Psistrike
10-22-2015, 01:44 AM
And the resurrection of Sarah won't be resolved by the end of next week's episode. So Season 4, episode 5 they are bringing in someone who knows how to help with a resurrection gone bad. John Constantine. And yes, it is the same one from the short-lived TV series. Maybe he will have some advice for how to deal with Damian Darhk.

savijmuhdrox
10-22-2015, 06:29 AM
I'm kinda bummed how not sinister or evil these Lazarus pits are turning out to be..

I've always thought you were not supposed to use them because they made you go completely F'ing Bonkers.. which we've yet to see a real example of.. especially if this whole Sarah thing pans out to simply need a macguffin to solve the issue.. and Thea can simply just ignore her bloodlust..

Sure, I may be completely off on my knowledge of Lazarus pit lore.. but handling it as a convenient plot device to bring characters back from the dead as monsters who'll "get better" seems to go against the grain of the whole shtick.. so I'm glad Nyssa destroyed it or whatever she did to it.. though again.. isn't it supposed to harden and like crystallize when destroyed? (not as sure about that one, either)

But I guess it wouldn't be Arrow if I wasn't rooting for half the cast to simply be run thru.. Laurel.. heck, even Ducklips turned to you and was like "uhhh.. are you sure we should do this???"

Other random thoughts... T-Sphere!!! OMG, Hurry up and make this show better!!! PLEASE!!!

Atom! I mean.. random messages to Felicity!

AND WHERE IS KATANA?!?!!?! Sure, Heroes Reborn is satiating my craving right now.. but it won't last.. Kiki Sukezane's head-shape is not as adorable.. and that outfit blanches in comparison to the Rising Sun mask..

Stormson
10-22-2015, 07:00 AM
Im not sure on the status. The actress for Katana may be tied up with the next wolverine movie, she apparently was signed for it, I read somewhere that was the case I think.

saint_matthew
10-22-2015, 07:00 AM
Uggggg, remote controlling a crane with a computer. That's not how technology works.

mrdent12
10-22-2015, 07:09 AM
Depending on the WiFi connectivity she could have hacked the control server and the crane could be high tech. Compared to the other breaches of what technology can do this isn't very big.

Overall, the season is turning out pretty good. The writing is better and Felicity isn't the annoying damsel in distress anymore. When they focus on Star city the show is pretty good. My only minor nitpicks are Oliver losing his fighting edge and that his comment at the end of the episode last week about running for mayor didn't go anywhere this episode. Both are forgivable though given all the other subplots going on. Plus, Damien Darkh is a very engaging villain. I know the plan is probably to destroy the city to make it better, again, but they put a nice face on it.

poodle
10-28-2015, 10:41 PM
I am deliberately not reading the comments as I haven't watched the series yet but although Felicity is the typical 'world's greatest computer hacker' which is kind of an old stereotype I really like her character and she has the best lines. Laurel is/was just annoying whiney bimbo.
As for Oliver and Felicity, why not.Oliver seems to seduce every other woman he works with. Personality wise, he has the same emotional range as his bow. Yeah yeah I know being stranded on an island and subjected to untold misery...yawn. All he had to console him was a cute Asian girl and all that time learning some awesome skills. I always thought green arrow in the comics was a charmer. Lighten up, Ollie, get over yourself. Smile, tell a joke fee chrissakes. Even Diggle, trying so hard to be Mr Cool shows more personality.
Oh yeah Thea is just irritating. She doesn't need unarmed combat training. She has a black belt in hurtful comments. Rant over

Kyle
10-29-2015, 05:43 AM
This episode felt like filler, but I also thought it was the best episode of the season so far.

There were a few funny moments -- like Felicity's observation that her interactions with Holt must be similar to everyone else's interactions with her, or her mentioning that she burned some incense to clear out the Baron Blood stank from their new hideout -- and the show's current storylines are reminding me of comics I really enjoyed -- GREEN ARROW: YEAR ONE, and Oliver's tenure as mayor during Judd Winnick's run on his book. Also, between Oliver setting up the new hideout as a team lair, and his coming to an understanding with Lance, I'm almost willing to hope that he has finally learned the true meaning of friendship. Of course, next episode he'll probably be a complete jackass to Laurel and Thea when he finds out they resurrected Sara and kept her chained in a basement just to prove me wrong. Not that resurrecting a dead friend in an evil hot tub and keeping her chained in a basement is a good thing, but I really prefer the kinder, gentler Green Arrow.

Speaking of next episode, even though I tapped out of 'Constantine' about half-way through the show's only season I'm looking forward to his showing up to solve that particular problem. Maybe be the end of the episode, Felicity will also have figured out that Palmer is the one messing with her phone so we can get some forward movement on that plot thread as well.

Horsenhero
10-29-2015, 01:26 PM
I'm with you on these points. Though filler, the episode accomplished something I always want from my stories...don't just tell me, show me. Having the city's best cops running a crime ring, so they can afford to get the hell out was a good way to show exactly how bad things have gotten.

I'm not sure how much Holt will play into finding Ray, but I imagine he will have some participation and that will help nudge him closer to becoming Mr. Terrific.

Oh, one more thing...I really liked Felicity's frustration with Oliver when he brings Captain Lance to their brand new secret hideout.

"What's the point of having a secret lair?" Hilarious. I also think it's great Felicity actually refers to it as a lair.

I really think this was a good episode in regard to helping set the table for events to come and things as they stand.

Mr Mole
10-29-2015, 03:13 PM
This episode felt like filler, but I also thought it was the best episode of the season so far.

I saw the episode as more of a "stepping stone" than as "filler," but I definitely get where you're coming from. There were some real shiny bits here and there, particularly with Captain (or Detective or whatever) Lance. Even Damien Darhk showed a moment of what passes for his humanity. This episode, probably more than any other in the series so far, illustrated the importance of fighting for redemption, regardless of one's past deeds. I thought it was handled extremely well.

Other than being a bit dismayed by Laurel's complete lack of rational thinking ability, anyhow... which largely fits and makes sense within the context of the show... but still, it makes my head hurt.

Maybe it wasn't the episode we all deserved, but maybe it was the episode we all needed... No, wait... Let's not go down that path...

Kyle
10-30-2015, 12:28 AM
I'm not sure how much Holt will play into finding Ray, but I imagine he will have some participation and that will help nudge him closer to becoming Mr. Terrific.
Having Felicity, Ray, and Holt all in the same room nerding out over whatever they invent to de-miniaturize Ray should be a lot of fun. Maybe they can call in Barry and Cisco for help.


Oh, one more thing...I really liked Felicity's frustration with Oliver when he brings Captain Lance to their brand new secret hideout.

"What's the point of having a secret lair?" Hilarious. I also think it's great Felicity actually refers to it as a lair.

For a bunch of people who seem dead set on keeping secrets from one another all these characters might as well just have giant neon signs on the front door that flash "Super Hero Hideout" over and over. I'm pretty sure that by the end of season one, one of Supergirl's villains is just going to be crashing on the couch of her One Bedroom Apartment of Solitude.

Though it's not like Felicity has any room to talk. Lance knew she was working with the Arrow long before he figured out who the Arrow actually was.


I saw the episode as more of a "stepping stone" than as "filler," but I definitely get where you're coming from.

I didn't mean filler as a bad thing, there was just very little forward momentum. Last week Ollie decided he was going to run for mayor, this week he let everyone know he's running for mayor. Last week they resurrected Sara with some complications, this week they talk about those complications. Last week Ray was messing with Felicity's phone, this week he's still messing with her phone. And maybe they systems in the new hideout, though maybe that's a new subplot, as it's not entirely clear. Last week's flashback, Ollie saved the woman by pretending he was going to kill her, this week's flashback he convinced the Shadowspire dudes that he killed her.

But yeah, even though it felt like not much happened, I can definitely see how it's moving the pieces around for things to happen over the next few episodes. The pacing just feels a bit slower than some other shows.


Other than being a bit dismayed by Laurel's complete lack of rational thinking ability, anyhow... which largely fits and makes sense within the context of the show... but still, it makes my head hurt.

I think Laurel acting a bit irrationally is forgivable. Or, at least compared to season two when she was popping pills and throwing wine glasses at her sister for showing up alive, I'm willing to forgive this version of Laurel quite a bit. Up to and including chaining up her feral sister in the basement without any sort of hygiene facilities or something to sleep on other than the concrete floor, I guess. Hell, unlike the S.T.A.R. Labs crew over in 'The Flash' with their pipeline prison, at least she was trying to rehabilitate her prisoner.

Arthur Eld
10-30-2015, 04:30 PM
You know, a code-name that's just a sort of descriptive title of what the character is can sometimes be pretty cool-Night Nurse is really a solid one.

But 'Lady Cop"? That's just bad.

I really liked Constantine, so I'm glad to see the character coming back. If I got my way, he'd be a recurring character, or even a regular, but it seems more likely its just a one and done thing. Aw, well.

Mr Mole
10-30-2015, 07:59 PM
I really liked Constantine, so I'm glad to see the character coming back. If I got my way, he'd be a recurring character, or even a regular, but it seems more likely its just a one and done thing. Aw, well.
I thought Matt Ryan was great as Constantine, but the show itself was only passable. No worse, really, than what I'd generally expect from a first season and a limited budget, but nothing great. I was pretty delighted when I heard he was going to be reprising the roll on Arrow. Even if it's just an appearance or two here and there, I'll take it. :o


YNight Nurse is really a solid one.

But 'Lady Cop"? That's just bad.
Whereas I solidly hate both names... but that's just me. :rolleyes:

johnsonwick
11-04-2015, 02:06 AM
Green Arrow always be a great hero whether in any season of Arrow series, people are trying to have some style and look as Green Arrow looks (https://filmstarjackets.com/arrow-season-4-stephen-amell-costume).

Stormson
11-04-2015, 08:21 AM
With any luck, maybe they can reprise Constantine's plot as part of LoT in a later season, or at least resolve it.

Mr Mole
11-04-2015, 08:45 AM
With Constantine, now it's starting to really feel like a comic book. One character's title gets cancelled after just 13 issues and so he pops up in another character's ongoing title around issue 74 for a team-up. It's great. :D

...now I'm wondering what's in store for #100...

Kyle
11-05-2015, 01:15 AM
This show is gotdamn ridiculous, and sometimes I love it. New favourite episode of the season. Between Matt Ryan's scenery chewing as Constantine, and Sara's pure, unbridled hatred for windows, I was constantly delighted by how dumb everything was. And Laurel called out Oliver on his hypocrisy, which is almost always going to get me on-board. Oh, and Holt's track suit said FAIR PLAY on the sleeve! Like Mr. Terrific! That small detail made me way happier than it should.

Speaking of other superheroes, they are really working overtime on the set-up for Legends of Tomorrow, aren't they? White Canary's soul is saved, and Felicity finds out the Atom is still alive in the same episode? The new Firestorm is sorted out one week, and Hawkwoman is introduced the next on 'The Flash'? Considering the show isn't going to debut until 2016, it almost feels like they could be pacing themselves a bit more. Ah, well, I'm looking forward to Brandon Routh's return.

saint_matthew
11-05-2015, 02:22 AM
Speaking of other superheroes, they are really working overtime on the set-up for Legends of Tomorrow, aren't they?

No they really aren't, they are simply telling good stories within a particular framework one could call action packed. It only appear this way to you because you've got your captain hindsight powers that come with a way to early product announcement activated. See if you hadn't been told that there is a well detailed tv movie event called Legends of Tomorrow that contained those specific characters you'd just be seeing the current stuff as either good or bad story telling based upon personal preference. But because you saw the trailer for a series that is going to come out 2 collective seasons AFTER it's announcement, you know where they have to get to from where they are now & so anything towards that looks like they are trying to shoe horn in stuff, when they aren't: They are just telling story, a story that will lead to other stories, which will lead to subsequent other stories, which will then lead to Legends of Tomorrow.

This isn't like in "Avengers 2: Age of foreshadowing for other product", where the entire plot for this movie, if you were to extract Whedon's smarmy dialogue, narratively empty fight scenes & foreshadowing for other products that have nothing to do with the movie they are actually in, probably would have been a 20 minute film.

With Flash & Arrow, what you are seeing IS the plot, in and of it's self: This isn't Flash & Arrow culminating in an eventual pay off, this is Flash & Arrow paying off right now.

As for pacing, I personally am finding this to be the best paced season of the Arrow yet. No more dragging out a single plot point for 3 whole seasons, "oh noes a character is dead, but we have a McGuffin that can bring her back, but there will be consequences we should deal with & look at that we just finished dealing with those consequences.... Someone better tell Ollie, oh wait, I'll tell him right now."

That was three episodes, under previous seasons that would have been three entire seasons of dragged out angst, half baked lies & wooden dialogue. I say "yippy! they fixed the pacing problems."

savijmuhdrox
11-05-2015, 06:17 AM
Oh, and Holt's track suit said FAIR PLAY on the sleeve! Like Mr. Terrific! That small detail made me way happier than it should.


Agreed. I caught a glimpse of it and kept yelling at the tv for him to turn around; but no.. the show felt like it was trolling me with the jacket..

well played Arrow.. thought these shows are getting way too crowded.. Launch Legends of Tomorrow already..

mrdent12
11-05-2015, 07:44 AM
The producers seemed to have learned from the previous seasons. There is still some issues, like all shows, but this new season has revitalized my interest in the show. A nonbrooding Ollie is refreshing plus the shift to shorter mini arcs with one big arc stewing gives the show a sense of movement now. Plus, it is just more fun in general.

Kyle
11-05-2015, 11:56 AM
The producers seemed to have learned from the previous seasons. There is still some issues, like all shows, but this new season has revitalized my interest in the show. A nonbrooding Ollie is refreshing plus the shift to shorter mini arcs with one big arc stewing gives the show a sense of movement now. Plus, it is just more fun in general.

If anything, I have to imagine they learned from 'The Flash'.

"Why look here, Greg; according to this glad rag, turns out the folks watching these adventure shows like it when the characters aren't such sour pusses all the time."

"Jiminy Cricket! You mean to say we've been going about it wrong this whole time, Marc?"

"Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves, m'boy! It's not as though fewer folks are coming out to to watch 'Arrow'. Just that they seem to enjoy 'The Flash' more, what with it's more wondrous and fanciful application of the premise!"

"This sure is a pickle! We don't want to drive off the payin' customers who already enjoy coming out to 'Arrow', but maybe if we were to stir in some of that whimsy, the critics wouldn't turn up their noses so much! Whaddaya think, pal?"

"Why, that's a cracker jack idea! It's so crazy, it just might work!"

And...scene.

Yes, the Arrowverse showrunners do sound like vaudevillian performers in my head.

Arthur Eld
11-05-2015, 01:21 PM
I don't think Berlanti has anything to complain about at the moment-he's got like 6 well-received shows on TV at the same time.

Mr Mole
11-05-2015, 05:47 PM
Just got around to watching last night's episode. Loving the Arrowverse right now. Really, really loving it. :D

Stormson
11-06-2015, 06:32 AM
And good news, this episode was the highest rated since the season opener, apparently, which would bode well for them using Constantine in the future.

Also, the dead peacock feather reference completely flew over my head, and I felt stupid afterwards that I missed it.

Kyle
11-19-2015, 04:06 AM
In the same vein as my complaints about Supergirl's earrings in last week's episode of that show, I want to talk about Oliver's ties. How does a dude who can [presumably] tie a bow tie walk out the door wearing a four-in-hand knot? Dude used to be a billionaire playboy, but he can barely dress himself? C'mon man, get your shit together. I know he's got a lot on his plate, being a vigilante and trying to be mayor, but how hard is it to learn to tie a windsor? Merlyn wears a windsor or a pratt. Hell, Damien Darhk is out there rocking that balthus knot. Those dudes look great. Even Ollie's campaign manager appears to be wearing a half-windsor; how is he letting his candidate conduct a press conference looking like a high school kid going at his first job interview? Shameful.

Anyways! Oliver's fashion faux pas aside, I thought this was a relatively good episode. There was a bit too much of Dig felling sorry for himself and refusing to let the rest of team Arrow help him out. Other than that though, there's some good forward momentum on the Hive story, I liked the Thea/Darhk development, and it was cool to see Ray in action again. I still think they could be handling the set-up for 'Legends of Tomorrow' with a bit more grace; having Ray declare at the end of the episode that he need to go find himself echo's the resolution to Sara's resurrection a little bit too closely, especially considering that was only two episodes ago.

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