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Triskavanski
09-16-2014, 11:14 AM
I've started learning about arrays recently and I'm a tad bit confused still on them.

For example I have a mech that is suppose to have different loadouts, like one for urban, for forest, for aquatic, and such environments.
Now what I'm confused about is the permanent effects, for example lets say I had a heavy armor load out for the mech, in which the mech is designed to face something that theoretically couldn't penetrate the heavy armor. Now this would be protection, which would be a permanent effect and thus isn't allowed in an array? Is that correct?

Same character, the pilot uses a revolver, one of the things he can do with the gun is a ridiculously accurate super attack called "Devil's Shot" that allows him to 'snipe' with the revolver. Its not something he uses very often though. Is this something that could be used as an array with a couple of different shots? Is there a way to make it so he could use this power with any gun and be able to do do some comparable damage?

Rev. Pee Kitty
09-16-2014, 04:20 PM
For example I have a mech that is suppose to have different loadouts, like one for urban, for forest, for aquatic, and such environments.
Now what I'm confused about is the permanent effects, for example lets say I had a heavy armor load out for the mech, in which the mech is designed to face something that theoretically couldn't penetrate the heavy armor. Now this would be protection, which would be a permanent effect and thus isn't allowed in an array? Is that correct?

Protection can be made Sustained, representing a force field, "structural integrity compensators," or what have you.

[That said, I don't believe there's any rule against a Permanent ability in an array. It just means that it's Permanent while it's active.] --> Nope, Permanent powers cannot be arrayed. Failed my INT roll there!


Same character, the pilot uses a revolver, one of the things he can do with the gun is a ridiculously accurate super attack called "Devil's Shot" that allows him to 'snipe' with the revolver. Its not something he uses very often though. Is this something that could be used as an array with a couple of different shots? Is there a way to make it so he could use this power with any gun and be able to do do some comparable damage?

Sure. "Different ways to attack with the same weapon" is a classic use of an array! I just recently built a sniper whose main attack is a carefully aimed Ranged Damage (basically, taking advantage of Improved Aim and All-Out Attack to get both a huge attack bonus and a huge Damage), but who can do a "snap-shot" that's a weaker Perception Damage. It's a good way to make blasters more versatile, so they don't feel like one-trick ponies.

digitalangel
09-16-2014, 07:28 PM
Permanent effects are NOT allowed in arrays. That and not being able to use extra effort is the biggest flaw of permanent. There is a reason permanent is a -1 flaw compared to continuous. Any other duration is allowed to be arrayed.

Arthur Eld
09-16-2014, 08:03 PM
Also, Protection is Permanent by Default. Making it Sustained is a +0 Extra, it doesn't cost anything because it gives you benefits and problems.

Triskavanski
09-16-2014, 08:30 PM
So basically the only way to get something with protection and an array, is to make it so the protection turns on and off. Which does kinda violate the idea of putting more armor on for different load outs, unless it is some sort of energy shield armor.


Another concept that I've been looking at is Paper Magic and Fiction to Reality.

The first is of course based off Read or Die, though is greatly expanded to cover all the Paper Sisters and The Paper.

What I was thinking was Extra Limbs and Elongation or Increased range, the idea of course is that the character is drawing from a source of paper to create extra limbs. The limbs could also form into sheilds of some sort to protect him and his allies, or he can abandon them all together to form Origami Monsters via Summon out of the paper.

Array:

Paper Arms: 6 Limbs, Projected, Source: Paper - Grab based talents and ambedex - Dynamic
Elongation : 1,Limited: Paper Arms only, Source: Paper - Dynamic
Protection : 4 or so, Impervious, Effects Others, Increased Range, Sustained, Source: Paper - Dynamic
Origami Monster: 3-4, Controlled, Source Paper, Check: Arts and crafts 13-14 dc - Not dynamic


The other one, Fiction to Reality, is a little concept of a character who could pick up toy lightsabers and such and make the real lightsabers and such, but only while he is using it. I'm not sure though how to properly put that together

FuzzyBoots
09-16-2014, 08:41 PM
Given the existence of the Metamorph feat for Morph, I think it's arguable that an entire load-out, including Permanent powers, can be arrayed. Permanent powers generally can't be arrayed because, well, that would mean that you could turn them off, negating one of their disadvantages. But when you link several powers together in a group, each AE is distinct from the next, which means you can't just decide to turn off one Permanent power and then still use other powers in the group. 2E had this as standard post-Ultimate Power.

digitalangel
09-16-2014, 08:41 PM
Protection can be out into an array. You just need to make it either sustained or continuous to do that.

Sustained means it goes down if you are stunned. Continuous is more expensive but that is countered by the discount of the array.

For something like a mech you can do an array off of summon or the sidekick feat to represent the mech.

For the fiction to reality power you might be able do use create. Depending on just how far the power goes variable might be needed.

Triskavanski
09-16-2014, 08:48 PM
Well, for having the mech, I was gonna use the equipment advantage like it says to do in the mech portion of the equipment guide.

Arthur Eld
09-16-2014, 08:52 PM
Equipment is different, you're supposed to be able to rearrange your equipment points in between scenes or adventures. So Batman can have an anti fear spray one adventure for dealing with the scorpion, a sonic bat call for another adventure, or trade in the Batplane for a bat sub, and so forth.

However, Equipment is also more fragile.

Think of it this way for mecha.

In Gundam, the Gundams should not be bought as Equipment, but rather as Removable Powers. Or as an Alternate Form for the main character (there was someone on the old boards who built Roger Smith and the Big O this way).

However, mass produced Mobile Suits would be Equipment.

Triskavanski
09-16-2014, 09:28 PM
Well, its what It has for the Mech. Titanzor-v is an Equipment rank 27 then Kerberaltes is 28, STAU is 18 for the three sample mechs.

Now if thats how equipment points work, I could easily set aside a thing of points then to switch out the different loadouts for the mech rather than having to rely on arrays.

The problem I have with alternate form or removable is that I'm the one taking the damage. Not really ultraman here. Even with Ironman it doesn't make too much sense in context of the mechanics of a removable power, as at least the way the movies have him destroy his suits on a regular basis.

Rev. Pee Kitty
09-17-2014, 12:01 AM
You might also want to consider using the Metamorph extra (from Morph). Back when I was trying to figure out how to make a battlesuit character who had several suits to choose from, Steve Kenson himself suggested taking Metamorph on its own, essentially using it to buy new character sheets rather than new powers. In one sense, that's more complex, but in another, it's simpler -- you just set aside X points for each mecha configuration, and then pay a flat cost of 1 point per configuration past the first.

FuzzyBoots
09-17-2014, 04:50 AM
Same character, the pilot uses a revolver, one of the things he can do with the gun is a ridiculously accurate super attack called "Devil's Shot" that allows him to 'snipe' with the revolver. Its not something he uses very often though. Is this something that could be used as an array with a couple of different shots? Is there a way to make it so he could use this power with any gun and be able to do do some comparable damage?

I forgot to address this one. Some of the Power Profiles have used a "Variable Descriptor" to add extras to equipment being wielded, Variable Descriptor 1 for "narrow range" such as only with pistols and Variable Descriptor 2 for something broader like "all guns". You could readily array that for different effects that could apply to wielded weapons.

As regards Equipment, one important thing to remember is that Equipment is supposed to be standard items, even if they might be restricted to a special group such as soldiers. If mecha are standard in your universe, it's fair game for Equipment. If he's the only guy, or it's the kind of super-science that a handful of people in-universe can replicate, it's probably much more of a Device.

Triskavanski
09-17-2014, 12:13 PM
I'm basically using these rules http://www.d20herosrd.com/7-gadgets-gear/mecha for mecha creation. It was one of the chapters in the the gadget guide, similar to how a Blue Police Box would be a Vehicle even though the Doctor is like the only person who has one.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BwlMJg3RozV0T05DVVNYTkhiLXM&usp=sharing

FuzzyBoots
09-17-2014, 12:37 PM
{nods} And in a scenario where power armor is common, as in most mecha campaigns, it's generally Equipment, the sort of thing that the players get on the cheap because it's issued to them by their superior, the opponents have similar levels of equipment, and it breaks down whenever the plot demands without compensation. Consider the "Under the Hood" segment of Devices vs. Equipment (http://www.d20herosrd.com/7-gadgets-gear).

Triskavanski
09-17-2014, 01:45 PM
So instead of using any of the rules there, I instead of some sort of bizarre amalgamation of something betwixt my character and the vehicle he pilots? Cause he isn't wearing power armor, he's piloting a vehicle.

Something that starts looking like https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwlMJg3RozV0dTBpMzkzTVMwNEU/edit?usp=sharing

If this is what I'd have to do, I might as well just grab a Humvee, and strap a 44 howitzer cannon on it. If this was a world set in the medival ages, would a car be a device then?

Ultimately, I see more complications using myself as the mech then its worth putting in the work to try and simulate how a mech would work. Like being able to climb out of it when some super power guy punches its head off. Cause Mechanically, that would be my head that goes flying off. Right now mechanically, If I'm hit with a continuous fort effect and I get into the mech, it just stops.

This is getting more confusing and muddled by the moment.

digitalangel
09-17-2014, 02:21 PM
Well if you are piloting a larger mech that is big enough to ditinctly NOT be power armor then it is a vehicle. It may be a vehicle built as a device, but it is a vehicle.

Built as a device a vehicle would be a removable device.

2E had an entire book dedicated to Mecha and Manga settings, including vastly expanded rules for mechs. You might want to take a look at it. 3E has Gadget Guides covering Mecha, although I haven't bought the gadget guides yet.

Triskavanski
09-17-2014, 07:12 PM
Well, I do have the the mech book, and the one I'm using with that character up there was the mecha in the book.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SSMdFlO-04aZqRmxhvuAM7RRRVQExSkfeIgUFxh7uow/edit?usp=sharing

Back on topic, dropping the mecha, is this how I'd want to make a number of attacks set up for a character like this? One is a basic attack, a second one is a super long range super accurate one, and the last one is a short range stream of bullets.

saint_matthew
09-17-2014, 08:59 PM
It may be a vehicle built as a device, but it is a vehicle.

You can't build vehicles as devices.... The cost of all equipment has already had the flaws of "being taken away" or "removable" calculated in the point buy equipment total & as such you can't buy equipment as a device.

Either you build something as equipment, or you build something as a device: Either way can work for playing mech based games though personally I find building it as a device is more versatile for actual game play, especially for interacting with other conventional effects.

Greyman
09-19-2014, 05:52 AM
So basically the only way to get something with protection and an array, is to make it so the protection turns on and off. Which does kinda violate the idea of putting more armor on for different load outs, unless it is some sort of energy shield armor. A GM may waive the restriction to allow Alternate Form or Device type powers to reside within an array structure, even if they contain otherwise permanent effects. This usually requires each array setting to have the Activation flaw.

Ysariel
09-22-2014, 09:18 AM
I don't allow taking the Activation flaw just to put permanent Protection in an array. Taking a flaw that lets you get about a restriction that is explicitly a consequence of another flaw? :) Sorry, that violates common sense in my book. Instead I prefer to rule that the Continuous +1pp/rank modifier is overpriced on effects that don't inflict a resistance check (Immunity, Protection etc) and make it cost a flat 1pp; if you want protection that can be arrayed, just make yours Continuous.

Triskavanski
09-22-2014, 09:14 PM
the problem of course, with that particular array, it was to have something that switched out on the mech. In this case, a loadout of equipment that could be swapped out with other loadouts that are not capable of being all piled on all at once. Making it continuous would mean that the moment you couldn't take a free action to maintain it.. Poof.

Essentially it would be like anytime you fell asleep your non-magical clothing vanished. Sure if you wake up, you could take an action to dress yourself again with a thought.. just don't go to any parties.

digitalangel
09-23-2014, 07:09 AM
the problem of course, with that particular array, it was to have something that switched out on the mech. In this case, a loadout of equipment that could be swapped out with other loadouts that are not capable of being all piled on all at once. Making it continuous would mean that the moment you couldn't take a free action to maintain it.. Poof.

Essentially it would be like anytime you fell asleep your non-magical clothing vanished. Sure if you wake up, you could take an action to dress yourself again with a thought.. just don't go to any parties.

You are mixing up sustained and continuous. Sustained needs a free action ever round to maintain it, and goes poof if you are stunned/knocked out/etc.

Continuous you turn it on and it stays on until you specifically spend an action to turn it off even if you are dazed, stunned, unconscious, asleep, incapacitated, etc. If it is a device it may even remain on after the character is dead until its power source runs out.